Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

[viole]

If what you say is true then what is wrong with that. If when we die there is nothing then who will care? If when we die there is something then believers will be vindicated and there will be many red faced atheists to be found. So if a belief in God gives you solace then why not?

Make sure you choose the right God.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Rick O'Shez]

If what you say is true then what is wrong with that. If when we die there is nothing then who will care? If when we die there is something then believers will be vindicated and there will be many red faced atheists to be found. So if a belief in God gives you solace then why not?

It depends whether you are primarily interested in truth or comfort.

 

[Serenity7855]

It depends whether you are primarily interested in truth or comfort.

Your truth or the believers truth. You see, they don't see through the same eyes as you do, which is not a bad thing. They don't set out to dupe themselves either. If what you say were to happen it would be a process over time that would not even be noticed but the effect of it is that the believer would be happy. Do you deny happiness at the cost of your need for them to recognise your truth thus sacrificing their own happiness. Come on. mind your own business and there-by allowing others to make their own choices. As I said "If when we die there is nothing then who will care? If when we die there is something then believers will be vindicated and there will be many red faced atheists to be found. So if a belief in God gives you solace then why not?"

 

[Ingledsva]

According to my beliefs which come from the Qur'an. The Gospel which was given to Jesus, as well as other scriptures given to different prophets, all of these scriptures were only meant for a certain time period for a certain group of people. Different laws for different societies. The Qur'an however was not meant for the Arabian society it was revealed in, as the book states, it is for all of man and for all time periods. So the revelation is completed with the Qur'an and there will not be any more scriptures after that. On top of that, God has confirmed in the Qur'an itself that He will protect His word. The other scriptures were not granted this protection because they were not permanent laws for everyone, they were left up to the people of the time to use them for their benefit.

Today, Christians still continue to follow or hardly follow their book, as with the Jews and the Torah. These are outdated laws that simply cannot be applied in modern times.

What? People are already coming up with different Qur'an translations, leaving people mad on both sides.

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[Serenity7855]

Make sure you choose the right God.

Ciao

- viole

I have, for me.

 

[Ingledsva]

*

What is your point? You have no proof for us of any God, and never will have.

As said - Science starts with actual substance and tries to figure it all out. Religions just have a belief they cannot prove. Big difference.

Science starts with the substance that God created. I believe that those who cannot see the hand of God in our world must walk around with their eyes wedged shut to His existence. The proof is there, however, you just don't want to see it. As they say "Live with pigs long enough and you will begin to squeal like a pig", or, "submerse yourself in atheistic dogma for long enough and you will end up an anti-christ".

What you have said here, does not change one iota of the validity of what I said.

You can not prove to us anything you said about a God, and it creating the universe.

Your un-provable beliefs do not trump science.

And by the way, - as I've said many times, - I'm Agnostic. I have no problem with there being a God. However, - no real proof has come forth thus far. Belief is not proof.

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[Serenity7855]

What you have said here, does not change one iota of the validity of what I said.

Well, I would expect you to say that, you are wrong, however, I still expect you to say it. Unless you have received the testimony of the Holy Ghost, testifying of that which is true, then it is inevitable that you will think that your unbelief is justfied. Sadly, you know no different.

You can not prove to us anything you said about a God, and it creating the universe.

You cannot prove to me that He didn't, stalemate. The thing is, I am not trying to prove anything to you. It is you who are trying to discredit the beliefs of Christians here, all because you couldn't cut it your self, therefore, your failure means that it is all baloney and you don't mind saying so in the harshest of ways, offend or please. Sorry, but that is the impression you give, not the impression that I want to take. I am proof that God exists, without sighting the other evidences in the universe. You just cannot see it. Why would anyone lie about it?

Your un-provable beliefs do not trump science.

Do you think that is what I am trying to do, trump science? I have been formally educated in science. I spent my life working in science. University was my greatest testimony builder to finally see God's hand in our world, and all demonstrated by science. Atheists try to use science to disprove religion, however, it does the polar opposite. It is the atheists that are surreptitious in what they do and not science.

And by the way, - as I've said many times, - I'm Agnostic. I have no problem with there being a God. However, - no real proof has come forth thus far. Belief is not proof.

And as I said, you portray yourself as an atheist without the slightest indication that you are skeptical of the whole institution of religion. You talk like and atheist, discredit Christians like an atheist, and you are overly critical of christianity, like an atheist. Therefore, it is fair for me to address you as what you appear to be, an atheist. Besides, there is a very thin line between the two as well, with both being defined as non-believers. The difference is insignificant and your objections unnecessary. I see no cynicism in your rhetoric on God here. I just see your predictable argravated and unfriendly disbelief.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I would be interested to know how you have determined that Satan created the early universe as it has always been my opinion that it was God who initiated it and then stood back and watched it all happen, after which, He just fine tuned it for human habitation.

God told me.

Can I ask what you interpret serving God to be? I have read your posts and find them to be profound and written from wisdom. That indicates that you are indeed a servant of God but in what capacity do you serve?.

Constantly working for the liberation of the spirits trapped within the energetic-material universe, and fighting against Satan and their servants, who seek to trap spirits in the energetic-material universe, and to keep them trapped there.

 

[Serenity7855]

God told me.

Fair enough

Constantly working for the liberation of the spirits trapped within the energetic-material universe, and fighting against Satan and their servants, who seek to trap spirits in the energetic-material universe, and to keep them trapped there.

If I said that I understand your response then I would be lying, I don't, however, it sound like you are doing what you can to stop the fiery darts of Satan, that is to be commended.[/QUOTE]

 

[OurCreed]

And who decides which and when? You? How about me? I've decided that the time for all revealed religions is even more past than when they were first proclaimed.



Which is it then, your beliefs or the Quran? And how does the Quran move from Arabian society, Reason? That reason looks very much like a sword, and sounds like Jihad.



So, unlike another Muslim on the board here told me, you're saying that the Quran is immutable as God has it? You therefore can't deny the message of:

Quran (9:29):
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

I wish I could communicate how much that angers me every time I read it. And every Muslim is committed to bringing that about. There's no possible softening of its aggressive pursuit of submission. And to call it willing is as absurd as being willingly decapitated.



As is the Quran. There is only one law, the Golden Rule: Honoring the EQUAL rights for ALL to life, liberty, property and self-defense to be free from violation through force or fraud. That's it. All else is individually determined and individually upheld virtue. All other "laws" are null and void for enforcement through force.

And who decides which and when? You? How about me? I've decided that the time for all revealed religions is even more past than when they were first proclaimed.

We don't know, but they weren't safeguarded, meaning that their message was only temporary to begin with. If it was supposed to be a permanent message, it would've been given protection. And we know whom they were revealed to from their own scriptures. The Bible states that Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Which is it then, your beliefs or the Quran? And how does the Quran move from Arabian society, Reason? That reason looks very much like a sword, and sounds like Jihad.

By the spreading of the message through words and reason. As the Qur'an says:

16;125
Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.

29;46
And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

Fighting is only allowed in self defense. The definition of Jihad is struggle, not holy war.

22;39
Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory.
[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.

I wish I could communicate how much that angers me every time I read it. And every Muslim is committed to bringing that about. There's no possible softening of its aggressive pursuit of submission. And to call it willing is as absurd as being willingly decapitated.

That's because you don't know the historical significance behind the revelation of that verse.
https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/06/03/examining-quran-929-does-islam-sanction-the-killing-of-christians-and-jews/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/11/02/revisiting-quran-929-tabuk/

As is the Quran. There is only one law, the Golden Rule: Honoring the EQUAL rights for ALL to life, liberty, property and self-defense to be free from violation through force or fraud. That's it. All else is individually determined and individually upheld virtue. All other "laws" are null and void for enforcement through force.

Then you missed the message of the Qur'an.

49;13
O mankind, We have created you from a male and a female and have made you into nations and tribes for you to know one another. Truly, the noblest of you with God is the most pious. Truly, God is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

This verse sets the basis of equality between men and women. Both are equal and referred to as mankind in this verse. The noblest is only the one who is most pious in God's eyes and not by any other trait or characteristic or nationality.

5;8
O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

This verse sets the stone for justice and equity, and commands believers to be just regardless of your feelings or attitudes towards others.

4;58
Truly God commands you to give back trusts to those to whom they are due, and when you judge between people, to judge with justice...

9;71
The believing men and believing women are allies of one another. They enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong...

This above verse grants both men and women political rights and responsibilities.

3;195
And their Lord responded to them, "Never will I allow to be lost the work of [any] worker among you, whether male or female; you are of one another. So those who emigrated or were evicted from their homes or were harmed in My cause or fought or were killed - I will surely remove from them their misdeeds, and I will surely admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow as reward from Allah , and Allah has with Him the best reward."

This above verse demonstrates the respect and equality for both men and women.

2;256
Let there be no compulsion in religion.

18;29
Whoever wills, let him believe; and whoever wills, let him disbelieve.

25;63
And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them [harshly], they say [words of] peace.

These three verses demand for freedom of thought and speech.

I can go on but I think that's enough.

 

[OurCreed]

What? People are already coming up with different Qur'an translations, leaving people mad on both sides.

*

Translations are translations. The Arabic remains the same.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

And who decides which and when? You? How about me? I've decided that the time for all revealed religions is even more past than when they were first proclaimed.

We don't know, but they weren't safeguarded, meaning that their message was only temporary to begin with. If it was supposed to be a permanent message, it would've been given protection.

So then, given the 1300 years, a temporary anything should now be null and void. You bring the Quran and I'll bring the Bible and marshmallows. What a glorious night that would be.

By the spreading of the message through words and reason. As the Qur'an says:

16;125
Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.

29;46
And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

Fighting is only allowed in self defense. The definition of Jihad is struggle, not holy war.

22;39
Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory.
[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.

I wish I could communicate how much that angers me every time I read it. And every Muslim is committed to bringing that about. There's no possible softening of its aggressive pursuit of submission. And to call it willing is as absurd as being willingly decapitated.

That's because you don't know the historical significance behind the revelation of that verse.
https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/06/03/examining-quran-929-does-islam-sanction-the-killing-of-christians-and-jews/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/11/02/revisiting-quran-929-tabuk/

As is the Quran. There is only one law, the Golden Rule: Honoring the EQUAL rights for ALL to life, liberty, property and self-defense to be free from violation through force or fraud. That's it. All else is individually determined and individually upheld virtue. All other "laws" are null and void for enforcement through force.

Then you missed the message of the Qur'an.

49;13
O mankind, We have created you from a male and a female and have made you into nations and tribes for you to know one another. Truly, the noblest of you with God is the most pious. Truly, God is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

This verse sets the basis of equality between men and women. Both are equal and referred to as mankind in this verse. The noblest is only the one who is most pious in God's eyes and not by any other trait or characteristic or nationality.

5;8
O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

This verse sets the stone for justice and equity, and commands believers to be just regardless of your feelings or attitudes towards others.

4;58
Truly God commands you to give back trusts to those to whom they are due, and when you judge between people, to judge with justice...

9;71
The believing men and believing women are allies of one another. They enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong...

This above verse grants both men and women political rights and responsibilities.

3;195
And their Lord responded to them, "Never will I allow to be lost the work of [any] worker among you, whether male or female; you are of one another. So those who emigrated or were evicted from their homes or were harmed in My cause or fought or were killed - I will surely remove from them their misdeeds, and I will surely admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow as reward from Allah , and Allah has with Him the best reward."

This above verse demonstrates the respect and equality for both men and women.

2;256
Let there be no compulsion in religion.

18;29
Whoever wills, let him believe; and whoever wills, let him disbelieve.

25;63
And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them [harshly], they say [words of] peace.

These three verses demand for freedom of thought and speech.

I can go on but I think that's enough.

It's obvious the vast majority of Muslims don't see things your way. And besides, I thought the Quran was temporary and no longer in effect. Or is it temporary and still in effect? I'm seeing this elsewhere on the board, but there's just no way you can have it both ways.

 

[Ingledsva]

Translations are translations. The Arabic remains the same.

Which Bible followers could also say.

However people of the Qur'an, and Bible, are following those translations. There are obviously different Muslim groups.

Also if that is the case? Why not throw out all the surrounding interpretations made by man, including Sharia law? And stick to just the Qur'an?

EDIT - Raphael Patai, in The Arab Mind, writes that the difficulty in understanding the Qur'an extends not only to the non-Arab Muslims, but to Arabs themselves:

The unschooled, who form the majority in most Arab countries, speak a local, colloquial dialect which is so different from literary Arabic as to make it appear almost a foreign language...They have their own language, which is adequate for all their needs and which is the only tongue they know, apart from a few verses from the Koran which are in literary Arabic, and which make them aware of the existence of a literary language that is greatly different from their own idiom (p.196)As far as the educated Arabs who can understand the classical Arabic of the Qur'an:

Even among the educated Arabs, the knowledge of the literary language is primarily a passive one. they know it well enough to understand it, enjoy it, come under its magnetic influence; but they do not know it well enough to speak it with any degree of fluency.

*

 

[loverofhumanity]

Just an interesting articles I happened to come across today. http://www.examiner.com/article/modern-thinkers-increasingly-confirm-a-designed-universe

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Your truth or the believers truth.

Beliefs are the enemy of truth. Beliefs are like tinted lens on spectacles.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Young? What about the millions of stillborns and miscarriages God causes? Way to go God.

"God causes"? Interesting. (That sounds a lot like ministers in many churches who say, 'God took your loved one, He needed another Angel in Heaven.')

The Bible says Satan 'takes' people: Hebrews 2:14, "the one having the means to cause death".

The Devil is a master at deceiving (Revelation 12:9); he causes it, and gets people to blame God!

 

[JoStories]

Your truth or the believers truth. You see, they don't see through the same eyes as you do, which is not a bad thing. They don't set out to dupe themselves either. If what you say were to happen it would be a process over time that would not even be noticed but the effect of it is that the believer would be happy. Do you deny happiness at the cost of your need for them to recognise your truth thus sacrificing their own happiness. Come on. mind your own business and there-by allowing others to make their own choices. As I said "If when we die there is nothing then who will care? If when we die there is something then believers will be vindicated and there will be many red faced atheists to be found. So if a belief in God gives you solace then why not?"

I have said this self same thing many times on this forum as an advanced practice nurse helping with people who are close to dying. If a faith gives that person solace and comfort, where is the harm? If they are wrong and there is nothing after death, who cares? That belief they have helped to carry them more comfortably into death and there is not one damned thing wrong with that.

 

[JoStories]

Well, I would expect you to say that, you are wrong, however, I still expect you to say it. Unless you have received the testimony of the Holy Ghost, testifying of that which is true, then it is inevitable that you will think that your unbelief is justfied. Sadly, you know no different.

That is totally unfair sir. What you believe is truth and that is lovely and I respect that. However, you have no right to tell the rest of the world, including those of us here, that what you believe is truth. Truth varies from one person to the next. I believe in God but not how you see that concept. Does that make me wrong or that 'you know no different'? Of course not. It just means we believe different things and neither of us can prove the other wrong. So please be a tad more respectful of other's beliefs here.

 

[JoStories]

You cannot prove to me that He didn't, stalemate. The thing is, I am not trying to prove anything to you. It is you who are trying to discredit the beliefs of Christians here, all because you couldn't cut it your self, therefore, your failure means that it is all baloney and you don't mind saying so in the harshest of ways, offend or please. Sorry, but that is the impression you give, not the impression that I want to take. I am proof that God exists, without sighting the other evidences in the universe. You just cannot see it. Why would anyone lie about it?

You're right, it is a stalemate. However, beyond that statement, you delve, once again, into insult. Calling it a 'failure' is at the least presumptive and rude. And the statement that you responded to with this particular post was in no way whatsoever insulting or harsh. Respect is two sided.

 

[JoStories]

"God causes"? Interesting. (That sounds a lot like ministers in many churches who say, 'God took your loved one, He needed another Angel in Heaven.')

The Bible says Satan 'takes' people: Hebrews 2:14, "the one having the means to cause death".

The Devil is a master at deceiving (Revelation 12:9); he causes it, and gets people to blame God!

So you don't blame God, you blame this other imagined character, "Satan", a ridiculous being created from older myths, such as Hades from Greek mythology. Do you believe in any of the Greek or Roman Gods or Goddesses? And if not, why not? Most of all faith is carved from older myths and stories, such as Christ which can be said to be related to the Eygptian God Horus and his parents. All of which is also built on older stories. The Bible and this character Satan are merely contrived stories meant to kowtow people into doing as they are told.