Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

[djhwoodwerks]

Without them there would not be well being or good health, how could we know what good health is unless we can understand and experienced poor health.

Really? So, someone who lives their whole life without sickness or disease (aside from the average cold) doesn't really know what good health is?

There are just over 7 billion occupants of this planet, many of which are suffering on a daily basis. I am not starving, however, I sympathise with their plight because I can imagine their pain. I could not do that unless it existed. Of course that person would know that he is happy as he has fillet steak for dinner when those who suffer get nothing. Come on, I shouldn't have to explain that on here. It is called empathy.

You said, "unless we experience poor health, we would not know what good health is". Now you're saying it's empathy?

Do you pray every day that you get cancer or some other disease so you can be ready for heaven? If not, then you don't want to be tested so you are ready for heaven.

Read Deuteronomy 28:15-68 and then tell the world why your god would use the curse for not obeying His commandments to "test" all the ones that do obey His commandments. When vv 1-14 are "blessings" for obeying.

Galatians 3:13-14 (ESV Strong's) 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

 

[Serenity7855]

You clearly have no idea.

How very gratuitous.

 

[Serenity7855]

You said, "unless we experience poor health, we would not know what good health is". Now you're saying it's empathy?

First off, you are quoting out of context. I actually said " how could we know what good health is unless we can understand and experienced poor health." To experience poor health can come by having it or by seeing a loved one suffer with it. Either way, good health is the opposite of poor health. One without the other could not exist on its own. You cannot determine what is good if you do not know what is bad. It is a non-sequitur, it just does not follow.

You are also playing on semantics. To see suffering is, of course, to experience poor health by the natural ability to understand and share the feelings of another. It is just another facet of the trials and tribulations that we must endure. You are obviously trying to tie me to a physical experience so that you can accuse me of contradicting myself when I add the element of empathy. That is not debate, that it is quarrelsome and gratuitous. You know what point I am making.

Do you pray every day that you get cancer or some other disease so you can be ready for heaven? If not, then you don't want to be tested so you are ready for heaven.

Do you think that I pray to get cancer? No, I pray everyday that if I get cancer that I will be able to treat it as a blessing and endure it. God does not give anyone cancer, it is caused by the imperfections of mortality and the choices of men. It is not having disease that prepares us to meet God, it is how we handle disease that determines who we are. No one wants to be suffer, however, we are all going to, so, I my fear is that my own reactions and decisions, during my trials and tribulations, will be an example of how Christ suffered for the sake of mankind and pray that I will be able to endure one small part as well as He did.

Read Deuteronomy 28:15-68 and then tell the world why your god would use the curse for not obeying His commandments to "test" all the ones that do obey His commandments. When vv 1-14 are "blessings" for obeying.

Galatians 3:13-14 (ESV Strong's) 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Deuteronomy is a record of a people who lived under the Mosaic Law of physical consequences in order to stifle the poor choices of mankind. Jesus Christ fulfilled that law during the beatitudes and introduced the Abrahamic Covenant. That, effectively, renders the Old Testament obsolete. When ever you hear criticism of Christianity it is always the Old Testament that is used, even though Christianity did not exist then as there was no Christ to follow because of the wickedness of those people, they had to have the Mosaic Law in order to keep them under control, like the Iraqis needed Saddam Hussein to keep them under control. When he was removed they went wild, as the people of those times would have done if the Mosaic Law was removed before it was.

 

[viole]

Do you think that I pray to get cancer? No, I pray everyday that if I get cancer that I will be able to treat it as a blessing and endure it.

Well, Christians too would do anything to delay their reunion with Jesus. Apparently. And they usually accompany prayer with good old science. Just to be sure.

God does not give anyone cancer, it is caused by the imperfections of mortality and the choices of men.

A friend of mine died peacefully at the age of 95 after 80 years of smoking and drinking. Another friend of mine, who never smoked, had a kid who died of bone cancer at age 1 year old. Apparently, according to the pastor, God wanted to have him in Heaven soon, for some reason he could not say.

It is not having disease that prepares us to meet God, it is how we handle disease that determines who we are. No one wants to be suffer, however, we are all going to, so, I my fear is that my own reactions and decisions, during my trials and tribulations, will be an example of how Christ suffered for the sake of mankind and pray that I will be able to endure one small part as well as He did.

Big deal. I tell ya. If I knew I was the son of the creator of the Universe with a death expectancy of three days, I would endure anything. There are people who endure much worse without the knowledge of coming back in all glory to rule the Universe. You make it sound like Jesus was somehow heroic. He was not, if He really believed what He said.

I think it is more rational to say it took the weekend off for our sins, rather than dying for them, Which is disappointing. I expect my sins to require at least a few months death to be redeemed. This is important stuff.

Deuteronomy is a record of a people who lived under the Mosaic Law of physical consequences in order to stifle the poor choices of mankind. Jesus Christ fulfilled that law during the beatitudes and introduced the Abrahamic Covenant. That, effectively, renders the Old Testament obsolete. When ever you hear criticism of Christianity it is always the Old Testament that is used, even though Christianity did not exist then as there was no Christ to follow because of the wickedness of those people. They had to have the Mosaic Law in order to keep them in control, like the Iraqis needed Saddam Hussein to keep them under control. When he was removed they went wild, as the people of those times would have done if the Mosaic Law was removed before it was.

Are you kidding? The New Testament is even worse, if we factor in that it should have been influenced by some Roman civilization.

Ciao

- viole

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Do you think that I pray to get cancer? No, I pray everyday that if I get cancer that I will be able to treat it as a blessing and endure it. God does not give anyone cancer, it is caused by the imperfections of mortality and the choices of men.

Maybe you should find a congregation to follow, you're not doing too well on your own!

If you get cancer, "something God does not give anyone, something that comes by imperfections of morality and choices of men" (SIN), you would count as a "BLESSING"? Why would you count something that does not come from God as a blessing?

Jesus Christ fulfilled that law during the beatitudes and introduced the Abrahamic Covenant.

Jesus fulfilled the law "during" the beatitudes? Jesus fulfilled the law on the cross, when He said, "it is finished". How did Jesus "introduce" the Abrahamic covenant?

That, effectively, renders the Old Testament obsolete. When ever you hear criticism of Christianity it is always the Old Testament that is used,

The OT is only obsolete when it comes to criticism then? You used Job as an example of God testing us with sickness and disease.

God could have prevented the Devil from testing Job, yet He allowed it to happen by not intervening to prevent it. (An example in the bible that contradicts your claim that God has never used disease or sickness to test us.) By not preventing it He used it to do just that. Job's sufferings came in two waves and in two types: 1) first he suffered material loss and the emotional pain that accompanies said loss (including grief for the loss of his children); 2) next, he was stricken with a debilitating physical illness. There needs to be opposition in all things in order for use to be tried and tested.

If the OT is obsolete because Jesus fulfilled the law, why are there so many quotes in the epistles from the OT, "after" Jesus died?

You are obviously trying to tie me to a physical experience so that you can accuse me of contradicting myself when I add the element of empathy.

You accuse me and judge me as babbling,

You seem to be the type of person who, if you were at a baseball game and the players gathered at the pitchers mound, you would swear they were talking about you!

 

[SkepticThinker]

First off, you are quoting out of context. I actually said " how could we know what good health is unless we can understand and experienced poor health." To experience poor health can come by having it or by seeing a loved one suffer with it. Either way, good health is the opposite of poor health. One without the other could not exist on its own. You cannot determine what is good if you do not know what is bad. It is a non-sequitur, it just does not follow.

You are also playing on semantics. To see suffering is, of course, to experience poor health by the natural ability to understand and share the feelings of another. It is just another facet of the trials and tribulations that we must endure. You are obviously trying to tie me to a physical experience so that you can accuse me of contradicting myself when I add the element of empathy. That is not debate, that it is quarrelsome and gratuitous. You know what point I am making.



Do you think that I pray to get cancer? No, I pray everyday that if I get cancer that I will be able to treat it as a blessing and endure it. God does not give anyone cancer, it is caused by the imperfections of mortality and the choices of men. It is not having disease that prepares us to meet God, it is how we handle disease that determines who we are. No one wants to be suffer, however, we are all going to, so, I my fear is that my own reactions and decisions, during my trials and tribulations, will be an example of how Christ suffered for the sake of mankind and pray that I will be able to endure one small part as well as He did.



Deuteronomy is a record of a people who lived under the Mosaic Law of physical consequences in order to stifle the poor choices of mankind. Jesus Christ fulfilled that law during the beatitudes and introduced the Abrahamic Covenant. That, effectively, renders the Old Testament obsolete. When ever you hear criticism of Christianity it is always the Old Testament that is used, even though Christianity did not exist then as there was no Christ to follow because of the wickedness of those people, they had to have the Mosaic Law in order to keep them under control, like the Iraqis needed Saddam Hussein to keep them under control. When he was removed they went wild, as the people of those times would have done if the Mosaic Law was removed before it was.

Where does that leave things like the ten commandments then, if you consider the OT obsolete?

 

[Serenity7855]

Where does that leave things like the ten commandments then, if you consider the OT obsolete?

I thought you said that you were once a Christian. I find that hard to believe when I read diatribe like this. You are obviously unaware as to what happened on the Mount of Olives, a major historical event in the Christian belief.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I thought you said that you were once a Christian. I find that hard to believe when I read diatribe like this. You are obviously unaware as to what happened on the Mount of Olives, a major historical event in the Christian belief.

I was (and I didn't believe that the entire OT was obsolete).
I am asking YOU a question about something YOU said.

Like I pointed out to you before (to which you disagreed) - all Christians aren't the same and don't believe all the same things. Just like all atheists don't believe the same things, nor Muslims, or any other large group of people.

There is no diatribe here (I suggest you look up the word to clarify how you've misused it). There is a question directly related to something you said. That's how things work in internet forums.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I thought you said that you were once a Christian. I find that hard to believe when I read diatribe like this. You are obviously unaware as to what happened on the Mount of Olives, a major historical event in the Christian belief.

What historical event happened on Mt. Olive?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Where does that leave things like the ten commandments then, if you consider the OT obsolete?

I find that hard to believe when I read diatribe like this

He/she definitely has no idea what diatribe means.

Full Definition of diatribe

1. 1 archaic : a prolonged discourse
   
   
2. 2 : a bitter and abusive speech or piece of writing
   
   
3. 3 : ironic or satirical criticism

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diatribe

 

[djhwoodwerks]

No one wants to be suffer, however, we are all going to, so, I my fear is that my own reactions and decisions, during my trials and tribulations, will be an example of how Christ suffered for the sake of mankind and pray that I will be able to endure one small part as well as He did.

Please provide one verse that describes Jesus suffering from sickness or disease!

 

[SkepticThinker]

He/she definitely has no idea what diatribe means.

Full Definition of diatribe

1. 1 archaic : a prolonged discourse
   
   
2. 2 : a bitter and abusive speech or piece of writing
   
   
3. 3 : ironic or satirical criticism

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diatribe

Thank you.

 

[Serenity7855]

Well, Christians too would do anything to delay their reunion with Jesus. Apparently. And they usually accompany prayer with good old science. Just to be sure.

That is a bit of a sweeping statement to make. I to would do what I could to delay my death because I need as much time as I can get to prove myself. I also fear the process of dying as well, nobody loves pain and trauma, after all. I am eager to experience the continuation of life though.

Not so, for me at least, as I believe that science and religion are inseparably connected. I believe that our scientific progress has been marred by those who are trying to exclude religion from science, for no good reason.

A friend of mine died peacefully at the age of 95 after 80 years of smoking and drinking. Another friend of mine, who never smoked, had a kid who died of bone cancer at age 1 year old. Apparently, according to the pastor, God wanted to have him in Heaven soon, for some reason he could not say.

No one here is saying that smoking causes cancer, although there seems to be evidence that suggest that is the case, so quite why you raise that nonsensical point is beyond me,

Then the pastor is wrong, not in what he said, but in the situation in which he said it, although such reasoning is very much a part of Christian dogma it is the meat of of our doctrine and he has used it as though it were milk, however, I expect he was trying to console those who were grieving and you have taken it as fact. How would he know that unless he had witnessed it first hand.

Big deal. I tell ya. If I knew I was the son of the creator of the Universe with a death expectancy of three days, I would endure anything.

Would you? you can confidently say that. can you, as if it is true then you are greater then the son of God. He came close to backing out of it all when He realised exactly what He would have to endure.

There are people who endure much worse without the knowledge of coming back in all glory to rule the Universe. You make it sound like Jesus was somehow heroic. He was not, if He really believed what He said.

No one has suffered as Christ suffered. He atoned for the sins of the world and bled great drops of blood, as it were, from every pore of His body. He was in a state of great despair. There has never been anyone who has suffered as much as Christ suffered for the likes of sinners like us. That, in my opinion, makes Him more then heroic. It makes Him superhuman. No wonder your understanding of Christianity is so warped.

I think it is more rational to say it took the weekend off for our sins, rather than dying for them, Which is disappointing. I expect my sins to require at least a few months death to be redeemed. This is important stuff.

Such mockery and blasphemy is not worthy of a response, even if you are gesting.

Are you kidding? The New Testament is even worse, if we factor in that it should have been influenced by some Roman civilization.

You are wrong

 

[Serenity7855]

He/she definitely has no idea what diatribe means.

Thank you for the revealing, sanctimonious and condescending English lesson, amidst a debate on religion, however, my use of the word "diatribe" is correct. Such acrimony tells us exactly who you are and the lengths you are prepared to goto in order to win a point other than by honest and informed debate. I am sure that you understood my point perfectly before you made this gratuitous criticism

di·a·tribe
ˈdīəˌtrīb/
noun

1. a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something.
   "a diatribe against the Roman Catholic Church"
   synonyms: tirade, harangue, onslaught, attack, polemic, denunciation, broadside, fulmination, condemnation, censure, criticism;
   informalblast;
   literaryphilippic
   "the ongoing debate about the desirability of single-gender education"

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=active&q=define+denunciation

Under your avatar you say you are a Christian. Did you know that?

 

[Serenity7855]

What historical event happened on Mt. Olive?

Sermon on the Mount Location is Unknown
Even among non-Christians, there is a general consensus that Jesus' sermon on the mount* (below) is the greatest moral discourse ever given. There is no consensus, however, on the precise location of Jesus' sermon on the mount in Israel.

It is called the Sermon on the Mount. Nobody knows where the Beatitudes where given, other than it was a mount, see the picture below this is the picture that my mind see when I contemplate the Beatitudes, however, that is irrelevant to the point I was making, that is, that the Beatitudes fulfilled te Mosaic Law. I am sure that my error in location would not have prevented you from understanding my point, which means your critique is malicious. You are a Christian. Right?

So, you are unaware of the historical event that took place on the Mount of Olives and you need me to tell you. OK. Several key events in the life of Jesus, as related in the Gospels, took place on the Mount of Olives, and in the Acts of the Apostles it is described as the place from which Jesus ascended to heaven. Because of its association with both Jesus and Mary, the Mount has been a site of Christian worship since ancient times and is today a major site of pilgrimage for Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants.

 

[Serenity7855]

Please provide one verse that describes Jesus suffering from sickness or disease!

This is what I said. No one wants to suffer, however, we are all going to, so, My fear is that my own reactions and decisions, during my trials and tribulations, will not be an example of how Christ suffered for the sake of mankind and I pray that I will be able to endure one small part as well as He did.

Can you see any where in that post where I have said that Jesus suffered with disease or sickness. That is not the only way that we suffered. He had His skin ripped from His body, that is real physical suffering. His disciples let Him down when He needed them most. He became so depressed that He asked God to take this cup from me, however, the pinnacle of His suffering was in the Garden of Gethsemane where He bled from every pore of His body (Hematidrosis) in order to take upon Himself, out of love for us, the sins of all of mankind so that we can become saved in our perfection by repenting using His atonement. Such suffering would soon kill anyone else.

 

[Serenity7855]

The OT is only obsolete when it comes to criticism then? You used Job as an example of God testing us with sickness and disease.

That is quite correct, an EXAMPLE not as a functioning Law.

 

[Serenity7855]

Maybe you should find a congregation to follow, you're not doing too well on your own!

That is for me to judge.

Matthew 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

[Serenity7855]

Jesus fulfilled the law "during" the beatitudes? Jesus fulfilled the law on the cross, when He said, "it is finished". How did Jesus "introduce" the Abrahamic covenant?

You think that Jesus fulfilled the Law by suffering an ignominious death on the cross, really? It wasn't the beginning for Him to bring to pass the means, by which, we can gain a perfected body, as He did three days after His death. He didn't open the gateway to immortality by dying on the cross and then being resurrected resulting in all the graves of the righteous being opened and receiving a perfect form? It is finished meant that His ministry on earth was at an end and He then gave up the Ghost? The Abrahamic Covenant was the Laws laid down in the Beatitudes

 

[Serenity7855]

You seem to be the type of person who, if you were at a baseball game and the players gathered at the pitchers mound, you would swear they were talking about you!

Again, another gratuitous remark from a self proclaimed Christian.