Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My view is that God allows suffering so we can alleviate it....

In other words if there are starving children we can find ways to provide food for them...

If there's unemployment there are ways to employ people... such as the Works Progress Administration...

If there are pedophiles we can arrest them and see they get the therapy they need.

If there are wars we can establish an international court of arbitration to resolve conflicts.

If there are stillborns and miscarriages we can investigate what causes these conditions and how to alleviate them.

Can you imagine a "world" where all our needs are met and there are no challenges or goals to achieve? I can't.

So then why isn't there more suffering? If suffering is good, why not have more of it?

And why would it be that God sees, say, suffering due to polio and smallpox as useful to his purposes for millennia, but then decides that they're no longer needed coincidentally at the sane time that humans develop vaccination?

I also disagree with your claim that getting rid of suffering that we have no choice or say in would somehow stop us from challenging ourselves. In fact, I think the opposite is true: we will always seek challenges, but we can't pursue challenges in pursuit of self-fulfillment when our overriding concern is mind-numbing pain or preventing our deaths.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Building 7 was not hit by an airliner.

The HIV-denier is also a 9/11 "truther"? Why am I not surprised?

https://xkcd.com/966/

 

[Serenity7855]

The HIV-denier is also a 9/11 "truther"? Why am I not surprised?

https://xkcd.com/966/

Because you know that I am a Christian so I love my fellow man enough to take my head out of the sand and smell the coffee instead of turning my back on the reality of the world we live in and how corrupt it really is. I try not to live in denial hoping it will go away if I close my eyes long enough. If anyone were to take a serious look at the evidence for HIV not causing AIDS, and for 911 being a obvious set up to dupe the American people into sanctioning war on Iraq, which reading your post worked on at least two of you, then I guaranty that you would believe it as well, just as 400 professors and 250 structural engineers were compelled to do. Anyone that has a reasonable level of education knows that aviation fluid does not burn hot enough to melt steel. It is a given.

Those who dismiss conspiracy theories humorously, and without looking at it with open eyes, play straight into the conspirators hands by persuading the world that there is no conspiracy and that if you think there is then you are a lesser person for it, which tell you the caliber of the person doing the discrediting. They are as bad as those who perpetrate the crime but just don't have the capacity to know it, even though with 911 the evidence is so obvious. They have been dumbed down by authority.

 

[Peter Stone]

God allows things to happen cause it would do more harm on good to remove all bad. That is why he lets everything take its course then sifts through the good and the bad with the judgement you used on others in your life to judge. You control your own path in some instances. Other choices made in our lives are a reflection of choices made by ancestry and that effect is taken to later generational suffering. All in all you can thank someone down your blood line for screwing you and quit blaming God for being where you are at the time of a disaster, crisis, war, or catching painful diseases.

 

[Serenity7855]

So then why isn't there more suffering? If suffering is good, why not have more of it?

And why would it be that God sees, say, suffering due to polio and smallpox as useful to his purposes for millennia, but then decides that they're no longer needed coincidentally at the sane time that humans develop vaccination?

I also disagree with your claim that getting rid of suffering that we have no choice or say in would somehow stop us from challenging ourselves. In fact, I think the opposite is true: we will always seek challenges, but we can't pursue challenges in pursuit of self-fulfillment when our overriding concern is mind-numbing pain or preventing our deaths.

All that this post does is either show your total ignorance to Christianity or you are making these abstract assertions just to wind posters up. If you knew anything about God and who He is, you would know that your presumptions are completely alien to Christianity.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I am afraid that that I have to disagree. When I hear or read the word contention it conjures up aggressive confrontation. What you appear to be referring to here is normal courteous debate, which can be intense or amiable but should never be contentious or confrontational. What I refer to when I use the word contention is a heated discussion that is aggressive. What you refer to is cordial debate without aggression. Contention is always negative, it is never positive because as soon as it is then it ceases to be contention and becomes something else.

1. Con·ten·tion
(kən-tĕn′shən)
n.
1. The act or an instance of striving in controversy or debate. See Synonyms at conflict.
2. A striving to win in competition; rivalry: The teams met in fierce contention for first place.
3. An assertion put forward in argument: It is my contention that they are lying.

2. con·ten·tion
noun
1.
a struggling together in opposition; strife.
2.
a striving in rivalry; competition; contest.
3.
strife in debate; dispute; controversy.
4.
a point contended for or affirmed in controversy.

3. contention
kənˈtɛnʃ(ə)n/
noun

1. 1.
   heated disagreement.
   "the captured territory was the main area of contention between the two countries"
   synonyms: disagreement, dispute, disputation, argument, variance;
   discord, hostility, conflict, friction, acrimony, enmity, strife,dissension, disharmony, quarrelling, feuding
   "there were a number of points of contention between the Crown and Parliament"

I have taken a look at three different online dictionaries, as shown above, and found that the general consensus seems to be that contention is a hostile act of verbal aggression between two or more individuals. Now that does not make you wrong as it is possible that I picked the only three dictionaries that say that, however, what it does is to show that there are at least two perceptions of what contention means and a possibility for both to be correct.



I am afraid that I have to disagree with you on this one as well, not because I know Satan personally or that your description is unrealistic but because it is not what is written in scripture or how I have been indoctrinated. According to the Bible and Wikipedia both Satan and Lucifer are the same being. Now that has always been my understanding as well, but that does not mean that I am write. It means that is how I have interpreted it to be. What is your opinion

I have alway seen Satan as a cool looking person who is welcoming and hospitable with a smile on his face and a glint in his eyes. You would feel comfortable and secure in his presents and instantly trust in him. He was called the Son of the Morning, the Lightbearer, The Morning Star. I have always known him as Satan, Beelzebub, the Devil or that Old Serpent. I rarely use Lucifer when referring to him, nonetheless, I have always taken it to be that both him and Satan are the same being. As you can see in the following exerts from Wikipedia and the Bible Dictionary and taken from Holy Scriptures, the have also come to the same conclusion, however, I do not mind being proven wrong by sound evidence.

From Scriptures
Isaiah 14:12
12" How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

Revelation 2:28
And I will give him the morning star.

LUCIFER
The name means the Shining One or Lightbearer. He is also known as the Son of the Morning. Lucifer was a spirit son of Heavenly Father and led the rebellion in the premortal life. The name Lucifer appears only once in the Bible

25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—

Satan
Satan, also called the adversary or the devil, is the enemy of all righteousness and of those who seek to follow God. He is a spirit son of God who was once an angel “in authority in the presence of God” Isaiah 14:12. But in the premortal Council in Heaven, Lucifer, as Satan was then called, rebelled against God. Since that time, he has sought to destroy the children of God on the earth and to make them miserable.

Satan is a figure appearing in the texts of the Abrahamic religions who brings evil and temptation, and is known as the deceiver who leads humanity astray. Some religious groups teach that he originated as an angel, or something of the like, who used to possess great piety and beauty, but fell because of hubris, seducing humanity into the ways of sin, and has power in the fallen world. In the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, Satan is primarily an accuser and adversary, a decidedly malevolent entity, also called the devil, who possesses demonic qualities.

Lucifer
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lucifer is the King James Version rendering of the Hebrew word in Isaiah 14:12. This word, transliterated hêlêl or heylel, occurs once in the Hebrew Bible and according to the KJV-based Strong's Concordance means "shining one, light-bearer". The Septuagint renders in Greek as a name, literally "bringer of dawn", for the morning star. The word Lucifer is taken from the Latin Vulgate, which translates as lucifer, meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing"

I accept that you are using the word 'contend' only in its negative sense. However, if we take the first of your sets of online definitions, I see nothing inherently negative about the act or instance of striving in, say, a debate (which we are arguably doing right now, and I don't think that is either demonic or negative), or to win in a competition. Furthermore, what is is inherently negative about an assertion put forward in argument? Similarly, if we take the second of your sets of online definitions, struggling together in opposition could be positive or negative, though I accept it has something of a negative ring to it, particularly 'strife'. However, 'a striving in rivalry, competition, contest' doesn't sound inherently negative. Rivalry can be friendly, and I don't see how a competition or contest is necessarily a negative thing. And many of the things we discuss in this forum are controversial and at least some of us contend for or against a particular point without that contention being inherently negative. The third of your sets of online definitions is clearly more negative. So I don't quite see how you get to 'the general consensus seems to be that contention is a hostile act of verbal aggression between two or more individuals.' Moreover, you say 'what it does is to show that there are at least two perceptions of what contention means and a possibility for both to be correct' - if that is the case, how can you then say that contention is always negative?

Wrt Lucifer, whilst we should never completely rely on Wikipedia for our research, since you reference the Wikipedia page for 'Lucifer', do consider what the entire article says. If you read under 'Etymology', 'Literal meaning' and 'Latin', you will see that the identification of Lucifer with Satan is by no means the only identification; indeed, it is arguably a later identification. Even Jesus is referred to with the title 'Lucifer' (the Light Bringer).

 

[arthra]

So then why isn't there more suffering? If suffering is good, why not have more of it?

And why would it be that God sees, say, suffering due to polio and smallpox as useful to his purposes for millennia, but then decides that they're no longer needed coincidentally at the sane time that humans develop vaccination?

I also disagree with your claim that getting rid of suffering that we have no choice or say in would somehow stop us from challenging ourselves. In fact, I think the opposite is true: we will always seek challenges, but we can't pursue challenges in pursuit of self-fulfillment when our overriding concern is mind-numbing pain or preventing our deaths.

Thanks "Penguin" for your question...

Human life for me is full of opportunities and with that can come pain and suffering but victory and great accomplishments as well. It took many years for us to develop cures and remedies for various diseases... None of this was easy or without great sacrifice.

I lived when Polio ravaged our community and a few of my best friends succumbed to that disease.. I also thank God for those who with such great sacrifice found the cure for Polio. I was in the seventh grade when our class was vaccinated. My mother-in-law today who is in her eighties has the scares of that dread disease. It is fitting here that we remember Jonas Salk and I recommend reading his bio at

http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/sal0bio-1

The last years of his life were spent working on a vaccine for AIDS.

Jonas Salk was reported to have been in a discussion in La Jolla California (near where I went to school) and I hope we can all learn from what he said:

“Why do I have to choose? Why must it be one or the other? Of course evolution is real. DNA mutates, and that makes evolution one of the most powerful forces in nature. But who set evolution into motion? Can’t God have done that? I can’t stand it when the ideologues take over on something like this. Don’t ever let yourself be caught in one of these “either/or” debates, because when you finally figure it out – it’s usually a bit of both.”

http://aussiethule.blogspot.com/2005/08/jonas-salk-on-evolution-vs-id.html

As a Baha'i I'm in full agreement.

 

[JustWondering]

If your God exists then why does He allow children to starve and pedophiles to exist. It is one of the most frequently asked questions of atheists and one that they think dismisses the existence of God. On another thread and another topic I recieved this post that caused me to think that maybe it is not something that Christians know or believe. Maybe it was lost with the creeds?



I believe that the answer is so obvious that we do not consider it. You first have to consider why you are here, what is this life all about and what happens to us when it is all over? Why are we here?
Coming here allows you to:

• Receive a physical body.
• Exercise agency and learn to choose between good and evil.
• Learn and gain experience that will help you become more like your Heavenly Father.
• Form family relationships that may become eternal.
• To be tried and tested in the flesh to see if we will have sufficient faith if God to keep His commandments.

Your life didn’t begin at birth and it won’t end at death. Before you came to earth, your spirit lived with Heavenly Father who created you. You knew Him, and He knew and loved you. It was a happy time during which you were taught God’s plan of happiness and the path to true joy.

One thing that makes this life so hard sometimes is that we’re out of God’s physical presence. Not only that, but we can’t remember our pre-earth life which means we have to operate by faith rather than sight. God didn’t say it would be easy, but He promised His spirit would be there when we needed Him. Even though it feels like it sometimes, we’re not alone in our journey.

So what is faith? To have faith is to “hope for things which are not seen, which are true” Hebrews 11:1). Each day you act upon things you hope for, even before you see the end result. This is similar to faith. Faith in God is more than a theoretical belief in Him. To have faith in God is to trust Him, to have confidence in Him, and to be willing to act on your belief in Him. It is a principle of action and power. That is the test that we are here to take. The test of our faith. To make choices that reflect upon that faith in Christ. If we had a perfect knowledge of Him then we could not be tried and tested by our faith because a perfect knowledge and faith could not exist together, there is either one or the other. There is a Mormon scripture that discribes this very well

Alma 32: 17-21

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he thatknoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

And that is the reaso why God cannot intervene and prevent the children from starving or take away the temptations of the pedophile. As soon as He does then the whole meaning of our existence will no longer be tenable and we would all be subjected to Satan. It is not that God turns His back on those who are suffering, I am sure that He weeps for them and longs to do something to alliviate their suffering, however, He cannot do that without destroying the entire Plan of Salvation by taking away the essential ingredient of faith.

Now, that is my belief. As I believe that God is a personage of infinite knowledge, I believe, so the entire Plan of Salvation is perfect with every single eventuality being covered. What do you think?

If your god is not omniscient, then he has to let things play out to see what decisions we'll make. That still doesn't explain why some people get it easier than others. If life is meant to be a test, as you claim, than we should all face the SAME trials. However, what we see happening in REALITY (where I live) that's certainly not the case. Sorry, but your belief system is not based on evidence and reason.

 

[JoStories]

Exactly. It's nonsense that you'd find in the National Enquirer or on some loony internet site. There is some kind of internet documentary about this that has made the rounds several times. I think it gives it an air of legitimacy to some.

I personally have never bought into any of the idiot theories that revolve around these kinds of things. IMO, I don't understand those that do. The UFO silliness. Whether JFK was shot by our own people. I mean, come on. I have a Time Magazine book downstairs about all these kinds of theories I can send to Serenity. I bet he would love it. I just get a kick out of how gullible some people can be.

 

[JoStories]

All that this post does is either show your total ignorance to Christianity or you are making these abstract assertions just to wind posters up. If you knew anything about God and who He is, you would know that your presumptions are completely alien to Christianity.

How so? It is an inherent part of your faith that you have this character 'Satan' who tries to trick you into making mistakes, hence leading to suffering. One need only do a cursory study of some of the saints to see how suffering was an integral part of what they endured. St Theresa of Avila, St Francis. All had disturbing visions, often physical manifestations that were horrific, they fasted for days on end until they could barely walk. This is the height of suffering. Catholicism is rife with stories of suffering of its adherents, often the more suffering, the better. Even the story of Christ is full of suffering. How can you deny these things?

 

[Serenity7855]

I just get a kick out of how gullible some people can be.

Me to, but as you say, I'm an idiot

 

[Serenity7855]

How so? It is an inherent part of your faith that you have this character 'Satan' who tries to trick you into making mistakes, hence leading to suffering. One need only do a cursory study of some of the saints to see how suffering was an integral part of what they endured. St Theresa of Avila, St Francis. All had disturbing visions, often physical manifestations that were horrific, they fasted for days on end until they could barely walk. This is the height of suffering. Catholicism is rife with stories of suffering of its adherents, often the more suffering, the better. Even the story of Christ is full of suffering. How can you deny these things?

How can you deny the obvious involvement of your government in the 911 attack

 

[Serenity7855]

I just get a kick out of how gullible some people can be.

Not something that I would expect from a true Buddhist, that is, pleasure from another's weakness.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Thanks "Penguin" for your question...

Human life for me is full of opportunities and with that can come pain and suffering but victory and great accomplishments as well. It took many years for us to develop cures and remedies for various diseases... None of this was easy or without great sacrifice.

I lived when Polio ravaged our community and a few of my best friends succumbed to that disease.. I also thank God for those who with such great sacrifice found the cure for Polio. I was in the seventh grade when our class was vaccinated. My mother-in-law today who is in her eighties has the scares of that dread disease. It is fitting here that we remember Jonas Salk and I recommend reading his bio at

http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/sal0bio-1

The last years of his life were spent working on a vaccine for AIDS.

Jonas Salk was reported to have been in a discussion in La Jolla California (near where I went to school) and I hope we can all learn from what he said:

“Why do I have to choose? Why must it be one or the other? Of course evolution is real. DNA mutates, and that makes evolution one of the most powerful forces in nature. But who set evolution into motion? Can’t God have done that? I can’t stand it when the ideologues take over on something like this. Don’t ever let yourself be caught in one of these “either/or” debates, because when you finally figure it out – it’s usually a bit of both.”

http://aussiethule.blogspot.com/2005/08/jonas-salk-on-evolution-vs-id.html

As a Baha'i I'm in full agreement.

That sounds lovely, but it avoided every single one of my questions.

 

[Serenity7855]

If your god is not omniscient,

My God is omniscient. He knows all that there is to know.

then he has to let things play out to see what decisions we'll make.

He has to allow things to play out because to interfere would remove free agency by making our choices His choices. That would render the Plan of Salvation as obsolete

That still doesn't explain why some people get it easier than others.

I do not know if that is true. They may appear to get things easier but we do not know their true sufferings. We just judge on appearance rather then knowledge.

If life is meant to be a test, as you claim, than we should all face the SAME trials.

That would only be true if we were all clones of each other having the same characteristics and faults, therefore, having to face the same trials and tribulations. We are all very different.

However, what we see happening in REALITY (where I live) that's certainly not the case.

I am not going to give you an exact figure, as there are some on here who thrive on searching the internet to prove you figures wrong, but the majority of wealth in our world is in the hands of but a few people who chose to hoard it rather than feed those who are hungry. That is the result of capitalism. It has nothing to do with God/ Indeed, there are no specific sufferings for any individuals to have to face. We are the masters of our own destruction the suffering that we see in our world is caused by our choices, other than natural disasters.

Sorry, but your belief system is not based on evidence and reason

You are right in saying that my belief system is not based on evidence because there is no specific evidence, however, my beliefs are based on good, sound, objective reasoning.

 

[JoStories]

Not something that I would expect from a true Buddhist, that is, pleasure from another's weakness.

What makes you think that Buddhists are perfect? We have our foibles. I try to be kind and getting a kick out of something is not being unkind as it has no impact on the person unless I say something to them which I would never do. I find conspiracy nuts to be just that, but that doesn't mean I am about to say to someone that what they believe is nuts. There is quite a difference between the two.

 

[JoStories]

How can you deny the obvious involvement of your government in the 911 attack

Where is your definitive proof of this involvement? And even if they were involved, what would you have me do about this? I am one person. I have tried to make my voice heard about various topics. I repeatedly write letters to the editor. I asked my state rep why he did not take a stand against the moron we have for a governor who is a bully and a loud mouthed braggart... much like Trump. He hemmed..he hawed and said nothing and worse, did nothing. I asked my senator ...Susan Collins...why on earth she would support Trump given his statements about women and so on. She did the same a Corey..the state rep. Most people don't even do as much as I do. They sit around whining about how terrible everything is but when you ask them what they have done to make their opinions heard, they tell you nothing. They simply like to whine or go on and on about how it was all a conspiracy. Yet, ask them to proof such assertions and they have nothing to say at all. I am not fond of this country nor of our political pundits that allegedly lead us. So even if the Shrub...I mean G Bush 2...was involved, what do you expect me to do about that? Again, I do more than most people and my voice has meant nothing to date.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I find your lack of concern and empathy repulsive and unsympathetic to the loss of so many lives, unnecessarily taken by those who run our secularist society.

I have the utmost concern and empathy for the loss of so many lives, and I lived through that horrible day along with everyone else who was watching. I don't know where you get off saying such a thing. I find your mischaracterization of my sentiments on the matter repulsive.

I don't have to believe the US government was involved in the attack to have such feelings.

Your post 284 is an insignificance in comparison to such horrendous human calamity, it is only another of your usual bumptious and supercilious rhetoric that fuels your conceited assertiveness and dogmatism that I will have to discredit and refute.

Uh huh. Whatever you have to do to avoid it, I suppose.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Building 7 was not hit by an airliner.

The Twin Towers certainly were. Building 7 was on fire all day long.

 

[Serenity7855]

Where is your definitive proof of this involvement? And even if they were involved, what would you have me do about this? I am one person. I have tried to make my voice heard about various topics. I repeatedly write letters to the editor. I asked my state rep why he did not take a stand against the moron we have for a governor who is a bully and a loud mouthed braggart... much like Trump. He hemmed..he hawed and said nothing and worse, did nothing. I asked my senator ...Susan Collins...why on earth she would support Trump given his statements about women and so on. She did the same a Corey..the state rep. Most people don't even do as much as I do. They sit around whining about how terrible everything is but when you ask them what they have done to make their opinions heard, they tell you nothing. They simply like to whine or go on and on about how it was all a conspiracy. Yet, ask them to proof such assertions and they have nothing to say at all. I am not fond of this country nor of our political pundits that allegedly lead us. So even if the Shrub...I mean G Bush 2...was involved, what do you expect me to do about that? Again, I do more than most people and my voice has meant nothing to date.

I really do not want you to do anything. I would prefer that you do what you feel is right. What I get uptight about is the 911 debunkers and those who will not take the time just to see what so many experts are crying out to the world about. I can see that you are conscientious within your own locality, however, there is a bigger world out there that we should be keeping an eye on before it all becomes to late. People categorically knew what was going to happen on the day before September 11th 2001. Whole companies that occupied 3 floors of the twin tower were told not to come in to work, apart from 250 problem employees who died in the Twin Towers. That is not hearsay, it is a fact. How was it possible for building seven to collapse into it's own footprint at free fall speed, that means without resistance, after receiving minimal damage. Buildings that were closure remain standing. Likewise with the twin towers. Literally hundreds of demolition experts have said that all three buildings were brought down by controlled explosions.