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Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
1robin said:
To everyone: I have been unable to post for quite a while. I will just pick up again at this point but if there were any posts where I left anyone hanging let me know.
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Darnit.. I suppose I can no longer believe you ran off, never to return, because I so eloquently bested you in our discussions. :thud:
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Ingledsva said:
Catholics like a lot of Christian denominations - believe we are "born sinners."


However, infants can't actually sin yet, so -


They believe unbaptized babies, that die, go to Purgatory for a while, to wipe away that "inherited" sin, then on to Heaven.


But if they Baptize them - washing away that "born in sin," and they then die, -they go straight to heaven.


In other words they don't believe any baby/young child - anyone below the age of accountability - is going to Hell, even if unbaptized.



*
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You know this is really similar to the question about a tribal person that never heard of Jesus until the Europeans came and "taught" them the "truth" about God. I wonder why they hold all those people that lived and died prior to that accountable? Except of course their kids that died before becoming old enough. But even Jews prior to Jesus didn't have his atoning blood sacrifice to cleanse them. So, since they do make exceptions for those Jews and for children, then his death isn't the "only" way to God. There are loopholes. I guess not anymore for the adult Jew, because Jesus has come, but at least their kids get into heaven, that is, if they're lucky enough to die before Bar Mitzvah.
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Nakosis said:
I think what it really means is that religious folks adjust their beliefs to fit with their personal sense of morality.

Eternal punishment was an acceptable moral standard at one time. Now, not so much. So Christian morality, like everyone else's is based on a personal sense of right and wrong.

People take the Bible and work some thinking into it to justify their personal morals so they can claim it comes from God. Catch phrase for justification is "Progressive Revelation".
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Whether he comes back or not, what you said was eloquent.
 
Gehennaite

Gehennaite

Active Member
If life continues ad infinitum after death(s), then death(s) cannot be renounced as "evil", especially if death(s) precede transcendent experiences.
 
Call_of_the_Wild

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
CG Didymus said:
I refuse to believe a lot of things Christians do, even when they show me plain scripture verses that imply what they are telling me is true. So, Catholic Christians have infant baptism, why would they need to do that if they "knew" children would go to heaven if they died? And, isn't the whole Christian premise supposed to be something like that Jesus had to die in our place because we can't pay our inherited sin debt, that somehow we are born separated from God?
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I disagree with infant baptism as well.
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
adi2d said:
So where do you believe babies that are aborted or die shortly after birth go?
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Adding to your question, I wonder what happens to the living sperms and eggs that don't get "hooked up"? They're alive but have no eternal soul or spirit until they join together? Then "poof" the spirit or soul, whichever one it is, enters into that embryo? But then, somehow, it has inherited a sin nature? So is the soul or spirit tainted or were they "pure" and only the flesh that grew out of the sperm and egg "sinful"?

Either way, a sin debt was paid by Jesus that can only go into effect if the fleshly mind and heart of the person chooses to believe? Right? So why would a pure spirit or soul have to suffer for eternity if the idiot human chooses to deny Jesus? If Call of the Wild can answer these questions, I'll really be impressed. Maybe 1Robin will check back in to give us his opinion too.
 
Call_of_the_Wild

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
adi2d said:
So where do you believe babies that are aborted or die shortly after birth go?
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As I said earlier...to heaven...and that is based on on the David/Bathsheba narrative when after his newborn son's death, he said "I will go to him, but he can't come to me".

That, and according to the scriptures where Jesus said the kingdom of heaven belongs to children.
 
Call_of_the_Wild

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
CG Didymus said:
Adding to your question, I wonder what happens to the living sperms and eggs that don't get "hooked up"?
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The question is then "when does God create the soul". Is it during the process of the sperm and egg hooking up? Or is it before? Either way, the bible is not clear about that...but one thing that is clear is that God is in control of it all.
 
adi2d

adi2d

Active Member
Call_of_the_Wild said:
As I said earlier...to heaven...and that is based on on the David/Bathsheba narrative when after his newborn son's death, he said "I will go to him, but he can't come to me".

That, and according to the scriptures where Jesus said the kingdom of heaven belongs to children.
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If that is true then the majority of souls in heaven have never sinned. God could fill heaven with as many souls as he needed without needing Jesus to die for there sins and without all the suffering.
That seems more like what an omni benevolent creator would do. No hell. No separation.
 
adi2d

adi2d

Active Member
Call_of_the_Wild said:
The question is then "when does God create the soul". Is it during the process of the sperm and egg hooking up? Or is it before? Either way, the bible is not clear about that...but one thing that is clear is that God is in control of it all.
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The Bible is quite clear as to when Adam received a soul.
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Hey wait, what about twins? Did the soul enter into the embryo before it broke off into two separate individuals? They might have split souls also.
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
spreadtruth86 said:
BIBLE GOD ALLOW KILLING CHILDREN/WOMEN

10. 2 Kings 2:23-24

He [Elisha] went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go away, baldhead! Go away, baldhead!” When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. (NRSV)



9. Exodus 32:27-29

Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' "The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."(NIV)



8. 2 Chronicles 25:12

The sons of Judah also captured 10,000 alive and brought them to the top of the cliff and threw them down from the top of the cliff, so that they were all dashed to pieces.(NASB)



7. Judges 12:5-6

Then the Gileadites took the fords of the Jordan against the Ephraimites. Whenever one of the fugitives of Ephraim said, “Let me go over,” the men of Gilead would say to him, “Are you an Ephraimite?” When he said, “No” they said to him, “Then say Shibboleth” and he said, “Sibboleth,” for he could not pronounce it right. Then they seized him and killed him at the fords of the Jordan. Forty-two thousand of the Ephraimites fell at that time. (NRSV)



6. 1 Kings 20:28-30

Then a man of God came and spoke to the king of Israel, and said, “Thus says the LORD: 'Because the Syrians have said, “The LORD is God of the hills, but He is not God of the valleys,” therefore I will deliver all this great multitude into your hand, and you shall know that I am the LORD.’” And they encamped opposite each other for seven days.

So it was that on the seventh day the battle was joined; and the children of Israel killed one hundred thousand foot soldiers of the Syrians in one day. But the rest fled to Aphek, into the city; then a wall fell on twenty-seven thousand of the men who were left. (NKJV)



5. Joshua 8:24-26

When the Israelite army finished chasing and killing all the men of Ai in the open fields, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai, including men and women, was wiped out that day—12,000 in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. (NLT)



4. Deuteronomy 2:32-34

Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, unto battle at Jahaz. And Jehovah our God delivered him up before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed every inhabited city, with the women and the little ones; we left none remaining. (ASV)



3. Deuteronomy 3:3-6

So the LORD our God delivered Og also, king of Bashan, with all his people into our hand, and we smote them until no survivor was left. We captured all his cities at that time; there was not a city which we did not take from them: sixty cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. All these were cities fortified with high walls, gates and bars, besides a great many unwalled towns. We utterly destroyed them, as we did to Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women and children of every city. (NASB)



2. 1 Samuel 15:3,8

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' " … He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword.(NIV)



1. Hosea 13:16

Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. (NRSV)
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But these are loving actions because, as the Bible tells us in"1 John 4:8 (NIV)
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. "
​
they simply have to be.


And, as Jesus---one of the three manifestations of god---tells us in John 13:15 (NIV)
"I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you."
​
we too should show our love by dashing little ones and ripping pregnant women open.

Or have I missed something along the way?
 
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ZooGirl02

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
I believe that God permits (but does not want) evil in order to bring a greater good out of it. For example, God may allow a person who has fallen away from the Catholic Church and who has fallen deeply into sin to have an accident because God knows that the accident will lead to the person repenting. That's just one example.

There is also the belief that suffering produces virtue. Suffering can produce the virtues of hope, patience, endurance/perseverance, and many others I believe. Saint Paul says as much in the Bible.

Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
(Romans 5:1-5 RSV-CE)

We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.
(Romans 8:28 RSV-CE)

We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. For while we live we are always being given up to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So death is at work in us, but life in you. Since we have the same spirit of faith as he had who wrote, "I believed, and so I spoke," we too believe, and so we speak, knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence. For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God. So we do not lose heart. Though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed every day. For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.
(2 Corinthians 4:8-18 RSV-CE)

So anyway, I believe with all of my heart that while God does not want us to suffer, He does permit us to suffer in order to bring about a greater good. That said, I don't know if I posted this in this thread yet or not but I wrote a blog post about this very same subject of how suffering can bring about good things on my Blogspot account. You can see it here:

Holly's Catholic Blog: All Sufferings, Tragedies, And Even Persecutions Work Together For The Good Of Those Who Love The Lord As Explained From The Bible
 
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