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Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I thought wealth was looked down upon in The Bible so how can it be a blessing?

Matthew 6:24
“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.


Matthew19:24
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Almost every sin in the bible concerns the abuse of a thing that has a legitimate purpose. Drugs, money, and sex are not moral entities but are amoral. The immorality comes by the abuse or love of these things in exclusion to what actually deserves our love and worship. Your position is drastically over simplistic and naive.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Very good point.

It's playing God to take lives but not to save them.

It's pretty much the same thing if you ask me.
It is not playing God because one is commanded by God and the other condemned by God. In one instance I am obeying God in the other I am defying God.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Falsifiability is not a requirement of any belief system. It is merely a criteria for science. One that science does not obey but does try to hold others worldviews to. The falsifiability of a thing has nothing whatever to do with a things existence. If you want to hold a group accountable to this criteria I would suggest you start with those who imposed it yet do not practice it.
Falsifiability doesn't directly relate to whether the thing exists, but it does relate to whether you have reason to believe it does. If your beliefs are unfalsifiable, then you have no rational reason to consider them correct or reliable. IOW, you're just guessing.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I've never really understood it either.

If someone recovers from it: "Wow.. praise God for such a quick recovery!"
If they die quickly: "Well... at least they didn't suffer, thank God."
If they die slowly and painfully: *crickets chirping*
I actually have direct experience with this. My mother (the only Christian in my family) contracted cancer and over 5 years suffered every evil it can create and finally died. It was her reliance on faith, the fact that only people of faith tirelessly helped our family, and the hope in a life free of cancer to come that offered any comfort at all. The atheist can only say "Oh well". There was anything but silence from Christians as she suffered. While the Christians offered sympathy and effort even at the bitter end it was (to the best of my memory) only silence that atheism offered.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Falsifiability doesn't directly relate to whether the thing exists, but it does relate to whether you have reason to believe it does. If your beliefs are unfalsifiable, then you have no rational reason to consider them correct or reliable. IOW, you're just guessing.
That is not the case. Falsifiability is only relevant when the truth of X is not available to the one who holds the belief in X. It does not matter one bit whether I have objective evidence for X if I have absolute but subjective evidence for X. It is only relevant in academic discourse, which seems to be the one place it is most often disregarded. It has no place in theology and faith.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
That is not the case. Falsifiability is only relevant when the truth of X is not available to the one who holds the belief in X. It does not matter one bit whether I have objective evidence for X if I have absolute but subjective evidence for X. It is only relevant in academic discourse, which seems to be the one place it is most often disregarded. It has no place in theology and faith.

It sound like you're operating with a very strange definition of the word "falsifiability". If a claim is unfalsifiable, then you have no way to tell whether or not it's true.
 

Triumphant_Loser

Libertarian Egalitarian
I actually have direct experience with this. My mother (the only Christian in my family) contracted cancer and over 5 years suffered every evil it can create and finally died. It was her reliance on faith, the fact that only people of faith tirelessly helped our family, and the hope in a life free of cancer to come that offered any comfort at all. The atheist can only say "Oh well". There was anything but silence from Christians as she suffered. While the Christians offered sympathy and effort even at the bitter end it was (to the best of my memory) only silence that atheism offered.

But could a god who is supposedly loving and benevolent truly see a person suffering in that way, and intentionally turn a blind eye to it, despite the fact that he is more than able to ease the pain, and in fact prevent the disease altogether? Just like, for example, suppose I knew for a fact that my neighbor was severely abusing his children, and I had the means to call 911 and put a stop to it... yet I chose not to, and let it continue... would you consider that moral? If not, why is it moral for God to do such?

I also have experienced such. My aunt spent the last years of her life being slowly eaten alive by cancer, and I couldn't help but to think. This "god" that supposedly loves everyone has the ability to stop this, to ease the pain, yet he continues to let her suffer. Why would he do that? Does he not love her enough to give her a more painless death? Does he enjoy the suffering? I can't think of any logical reason for him to let someone endure that much pain, when he has the ability to stop it at any time.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I actually have direct experience with this. My mother (the only Christian in my family) contracted cancer and over 5 years suffered every evil it can create and finally died. It was her reliance on faith, the fact that only people of faith tirelessly helped our family, and the hope in a life free of cancer to come that offered any comfort at all. The atheist can only say "Oh well". There was anything but silence from Christians as she suffered. While the Christians offered sympathy and effort even at the bitter end it was (to the best of my memory) only silence that atheism offered.

Strange: when I was watching my father die of cancer, I remember thinking "I'm glad I don't believe in God", because as an atheist, I didn't have to try to reconcile my father's suffering with the idea that things were unfolding according to some holy plan. Instead, I was free to recognize his cancer for what it is: a horrible thing that we should fight, not a blessing in disguise. I was also able to have hope for the future: in a fight against a disease, humanity has a chance of winning; in a fight against a god, we'd have no hope at all.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I also have experienced such. My aunt spent the last years of her life being slowly eaten alive by cancer, and I couldn't help but to think. This "god" that supposedly loves everyone has the ability to stop this, to ease the pain, yet he continues to let her suffer. Why would he do that? Does he not love her enough to give her a more painless death? Does he enjoy the suffering? I can't think of any logical reason for him to let someone endure that much pain, when he has the ability to stop it at any time.

Strange: when I was watching my father die of cancer, I remember thinking "I'm glad I don't believe in God", because as an atheist, I didn't have to try to reconcile my father's suffering with the idea that things were unfolding according to some holy plan. Instead, I was free to recognize his cancer for what it is: a horrible thing that we should fight, not a blessing in disguise. I was also able to have hope for the future: in a fight against a disease, humanity has a chance of winning; in a fight against a god, we'd have no hope at all.

Thats some rough way to drive a point home. I see this a lot when it comes to death, thats when the normal doubters are the quickest to turn to some sort of solace that is faith based. From my experience if your not saying "god bless", "prayers are with you" or something of the sort it is almost looked down on as not good enough. It seems to me that heaven makes living people want to be with their non-living families and an atheist or non-reward believer would appreciate life for what it is, very precious.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Thats some rough way to drive a point home. I see this a lot when it comes to death, thats when the normal doubters are the quickest to turn to some sort of solace that is faith based. From my experience if your not saying "god bless", "prayers are with you" or something of the sort it is almost looked down on as not good enough. It seems to me that heaven makes living people want to be with their non-living families and an atheist or non-reward believer would appreciate life for what it is, very precious.

Of course I appreciate life. I think it devalues actual life to treat it as just the prelude to Heaven.

I see prayers over the sick as more about they prayer than the prayee: they satisfy the desire to help without actually helping. It's like junk food that stops hunger pangs without delivering nutrition.

... but just as I wouldn't be too hard on someone for not eating right when they weren't taught proper nutrition, I try not to be too hard on people who pray in difficult situations. It's a coping mechanism. There's not necessarily anything wrong with employing a coping mechanism, but we shouldn't make it out to be more than it is.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
It sound like you're operating with a very strange definition of the word "falsifiability". If a claim is unfalsifiable, then you have no way to tell whether or not it's true.
That is not so. I can know I exist even if there was no way to falsify it. What you should have said is that there is no objective method to prove a thing exists if it is falsifiable and I am not even sure that one is true. BTW evolution sure seems to be falsifiable. We find all major body plans appear in a geological instant without any evidence of evolution and the model does not go away it only evolves into another form. Sometimes I think the theory more evolutionary than what it describes.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
But could a god who is supposedly loving and benevolent truly see a person suffering in that way, and intentionally turn a blind eye to it, despite the fact that he is more than able to ease the pain, and in fact prevent the disease altogether? Just like, for example, suppose I knew for a fact that my neighbor was severely abusing his children, and I had the means to call 911 and put a stop to it... yet I chose not to, and let it continue... would you consider that moral? If not, why is it moral for God to do such?
No amount of evil is inconsistent with a good God. I have explained that in detail and it is no longer considered a viable argument by mainstream scholars on the whole. However we do not have pure suffering to deal with. We have a level of evil which you have arbitrarily said was too much. let me ask then then how much evil given freewill would have been acceptable? How do you know? If you had the courage to follow your line of reasoning to it's conclusion then you would claim any suffering is incompatible with God. Not true but at least consistent. That world by the way would not allow freewill and so would not allow an omnipotent God to create at all.

I also have experienced such. My aunt spent the last years of her life being slowly eaten alive by cancer, and I couldn't help but to think. This "god" that supposedly loves everyone has the ability to stop this, to ease the pain, yet he continues to let her suffer. Why would he do that? Does he not love her enough to give her a more painless death? Does he enjoy the suffering? I can't think of any logical reason for him to let someone endure that much pain, when he has the ability to stop it at any time.
You would not believe how much faith comes as the result of evil. Let me ask you how in the world could you have faith in the warnings of God against evil if evil did not produce suffering? How could you believe in sin's consequences if it never had any? How could you believe in freewill if you could not chose to act wrongly? How could you love anything without the choice to and all that that necessitates? It is a proven fact that tragedy produces faith, that is why church attendance grew after 9/11. We are rebellious and so tend not to believe until we see. You certainly have my sympathy if you lost faith in God because of suffering but many have found faith because of it and so you do not have my agreement. It is not goodness (and there is plenty), the miraculous, nor the evil which determines faith. It is the heart that weighs them.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Strange: when I was watching my father die of cancer, I remember thinking "I'm glad I don't believe in God", because as an atheist, I didn't have to try to reconcile my father's suffering with the idea that things were unfolding according to some holy plan. Instead, I was free to recognize his cancer for what it is: a horrible thing that we should fight, not a blessing in disguise. I was also able to have hope for the future: in a fight against a disease, humanity has a chance of winning; in a fight against a god, we'd have no hope at all.
Suffering many times has that immediate effect, as it did with me. However in many cases it worked on me and others in other ways, given time. If you asked the average Christian what led to his faith in many cases tragedy would be mentioned. It is not miracles, good (and there is plenty), nor evil that determines faith but the heart that serves as the lens that does. In a wiling heart great evil produces only greater faith and in a rebellious heart it's opposite. As I have stated you have my sympathy but not my agreement. Who would believe in freewill if we could not chose wrongly? Who would believe in sins severity if we did not see it first hand? In many ways evil is a great argument for God's necessity.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Suffering many times has that immediate effect, as it did with me. However in many cases it worked on me and others in other ways, given time. If you asked the average Christian what led to his faith in many cases tragedy would be mentioned. It is not miracles, good (and there is plenty), nor evil that determines faith but the heart that serves as the lens that does. In a wiling heart great evil produces only greater faith and in a rebellious heart it's opposite. As I have stated you have my sympathy but not my agreement. Who would believe in freewill if we could not chose wrongly? Who would believe in sins severity if we did not see it first hand? In many ways evil is a great argument for God's necessity.

At is kinda odd that it works like that. Might have something to do with Christianity telling the person that they are worthless without a savior. They believe it in times of distress but I believe that can be a healthy outlet no doubt. I don't like the methodology though.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
No amount of evil is inconsistent with a good God...That world by the way would not allow freewill and so would not allow an omnipotent God to create at all.
Prior to creation was there evil? I assume no. Who did all the creating? I assume the God of the Christians. In Rev. 21:4 The Christian God says:
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.”
Whether you believe in an old Earth or a young Earth doesn't make much difference. Suffering sounds like it is only a temporary thing, and so does evil. What happens for the rest of eternity? Does God's creation still have freewill? Can those that believed in Jesus and end up going to heaven sin? Do they even have a choice anymore? And what about God's angels? When he created them did they have freewill? If they didn't, how come they rebelled? If they did, do they still have it? Can some of them still turn away from God at some later time, or some of the bad ones repent?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Suffering many times has that immediate effect, as it did with me. However in many cases it worked on me and others in other ways, given time. If you asked the average Christian what led to his faith in many cases tragedy would be mentioned. It is not miracles, good (and there is plenty), nor evil that determines faith but the heart that serves as the lens that does. In a wiling heart great evil produces only greater faith and in a rebellious heart it's opposite. As I have stated you have my sympathy but not my agreement. Who would believe in freewill if we could not chose wrongly? Who would believe in sins severity if we did not see it first hand? In many ways evil is a great argument for God's necessity.

Rationalize yourself into believing that your mother's cancer was a hidden blessing if you want; that's your business. I will continue to see no good in the lymphoma that killed my father.

The existence of evil isn't an argument for God's necessity; it's an argument for either his non-existence or his incompetence.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Rationalize yourself into believing that your mother's cancer was a hidden blessing if you want; that's your business. I will continue to see no good in the lymphoma that killed my father.

The existence of evil isn't an argument for God's necessity; it's an argument for either his non-existence or his incompetence.
But the argument seems to be that he allows it? For the greater good? It's funny, my wife just got a little dog. It has freewill, I guess, but because she loves it, she trains it. She rewards it for good behavior. She lovingly reprimands the dog when it does something wrong. She does her best to protect it from dangerous situations. When it gets old and sick and in pain, she'll have it put to sleep, rather than watch it suffer. Are we nicer and kinder and more thoughtful than God?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Are we nicer and kinder and more thoughtful than God?

Let me put it this way: you know the outrage at the people who witnessed the murder of Kitty Genovese but did nothing to stop it? We condemn those witnesses - and rightly so, IMO - for standing by and doing nothing.

God is like one of the witnesses to that murder... only repeated for every single murder in history.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
This was brought out many times by Atheists and agnostics, I would like to discuss it with you in a rational and respectful manner. My disclaimer is I am a true 5 point Calvinist and If that is offensive to you,You are free to close the thread now. If I may suggest , we leave out all slander against My God in the process of this discussion, slander being pre-defined as name calling as If he were real and present.Questioning scriptures depiction of God however you interpret is allowed. Example: Is God evil? Fair enough?

Offering my level best within my understanding (absent that special "revelation") of Biblical texts, I would say that God certainly retains the obvious capacity of whatever we mortals might deem as humanly "evil", yes.

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He has pre-ordained them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.
I read it more or less as you do...

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.
Well, let's at least be fair in level argument. You cite an antagonistic "atheistic argument", yet preclude any atheistic counterpoints as legitimate or worthy of fair hearing? Hmmm. IN this event, just allow one "atheist" to offer honest and heartfelt condolences of a lost individual or loved one on anyone's behalf...because silly atheists are sure that dead people are gone forever. And that always hurts.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God. Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?
This, is a result only your own beliefs can answer, and not one left to matters of simplistic reason alone.

Why do good people die, and crappy people live on indefinitely?

I don't know.

Perhaps, only a religious faith will lend any "answer" worth accepting as "truth".

Keep us updated as to how that works out...
 

johnhanks

Well-Known Member
We find all major body plans appear in a geological instant without any evidence of evolution...
I'm surprised to see you trotting out this old creationist misrepresentation of the "Cambrian explosion". Off-topic it may be, but I'm reluctant to let it go unchallenged.

Firstly, this "geological instant" in which many extant phyla appeared lasted some 70-80 million years - considerably longer than the period that separates us from the dinosaurs. Rather a long instant, even by geological standards.
Secondly, predating the "Cambrian explosion" is a fossil record of unicellular life stretching over several billion years, together with an ever-growing record of the Precambrian metazoa from which Cambrian fauna evolved.
Thirdly, if "all major body plans" are supposed to have popped into existence in this geological instant, where do we find our own - the vertebrate (as opposed to protochordate) body plan?
 
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