Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[JM2C]

That's only because it doesn't.

What happens, happens.

There's no God deciding what is going to happen to who.

Time and chance?

 

[JM2C]

If I decide to pull out a pistol and blow my head off and it DOES kill me...

Does that mean that God just had bigger and better plans for me?

Maybe if I survive it means I have a guardian angel.

It depends on who is your god.

 

[JM2C]

Sounds extremely self serving.

Not really!
What I meant by “As a Christian death is a gift from God.” is the fear of death. Fear is an inhibiting and enslaving thing; and when people are gripped by the ultimate fear--the fear of death--they are in cruel bondage. Christ set us, Christians, free from the fear of death when he defeated satan on the cross.

Heb 2:14 Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—Jesus also became flesh and blood by being born in human form. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the Devil, who had the power of death.
Heb 2:15 Only in this way could he deliver those who have lived all their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.

 

[JM2C]

Especially given the general anti attitude of Christians whe it comes to euthanasia...

Why is it considered "playing God" to remove someone from life support, but not considered "playing God" when artificially keeping someone alive?

I think you have a very big misconception of the word or the name “Christian”
You think Christians are more on politics than religion. Well, perhaps you should read more about the history of Christianity. True Christians are different from other semi-Christians or semi-hybrid Christians.

 

[JM2C]

I thought wealth was looked down upon in The Bible so how can it be a blessing?

Matthew 6:24
“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

Matthew19:24
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

The Lord Jesus Christ was talking about “greed” in these 2 verses that you quoted.

There is nothing wrong with wealth or money, it is what one does with the money that separate one from God, and that is “greed”. Do you ever share or give something to anyone without asking something in return or do you only give to those who can give back or return the same thing to you?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Lord Jesus Christ was talking about “greed” in these 2 verses that you quoted.

There is nothing wrong with wealth or money, it is what one does with the money that separate one from God, and that is “greed”. Do you ever share or give something to anyone without asking something in return or do you only give to those who can give back or return the same thing to you?

Do you ever give something without expecting reward in Heaven?

 

[CG Didymus]

Not really!
What I meant by “As a Christian death is a gift from God.” is the fear of death. Fear is an inhibiting and enslaving thing; and when people are gripped by the ultimate fear--the fear of death--they are in cruel bondage. Christ set us, Christians, free from the fear of death when he defeated satan on the cross.

Heb 2:14 Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—Jesus also became flesh and blood by being born in human form. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the Devil, who had the power of death.
Heb 2:15 Only in this way could he deliver those who have lived all their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.

We're free from the fear of death, because we're going to live on? What about the people that lived before Jesus "set us free"? Did they know they were "slaves to the fear of dying"? So, since Jews don't accept Jesus as their Messiah, do they and should they have a fear of dying?

The whole thing is a little odd. You say God could only defeat the devil by becoming human and dying? Something, a spirit being that turned bad, that he created out of nothing? That is still roaming the spirit world and causing trouble? Something that he will someday cast into the lake of fire? But, that's already defeated? Why keep him around? Unless, God needs him and likes him to be doing what he's doing to us.

 

[JM2C]

This kind of proves what I just said.

If you get cancer and die, God has bigger plans.

If you get cancer and live, God was looking out for you.

If you live, it's a gift from God.

If you die, it's a gift from God.

If you live a life of suffering, God is giving you a test.

If you are born into riches and luxury, God has blessed you.

No offense but to me, it sounds like a lot of "turning the head" and "accepting."

Contentment is the right word for everything you said.

How do you content yourself?

You want to live long but keep on complaining, or the more you live the more you complain. You want to be rich because you want to buy more things which you really don‘t need. The fact is, people will die eventually and there is nothing we could do. If one dies at early age, because of sickness/cancer, people blame God because many people died at old age. Always comparing things so we could blame each other or God.

This is a promise from God,

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[1robin]

Prior to creation was there evil? I assume no. Who did all the creating? I assume the God of the Christians. In Rev. 21:4 The Christian God says:

I really do not get the question. There was no evil until the angels rebelled. How long before man did that take place I cannot say. According to the bible the angels were allowed to choose once and for all who they would serve. 2/3rds chose God and remained in heaven, 1/3rd followed Satan to earth. It was through him that Adam was tested. Adam and Eve both failed and chose Satan. Evil was born. I have no idea what parts of genesis are literal beyond a few verses. You can view this however you like but the end result will not change. God created choice, it was used to create evil.

The verse you quoted concerns what will happen after this sad tale has wound it's pathetic course and al is said and done. It has nothing to do with the period we are living through. It does however teach a very important point. When God assumes again complete control (instead of passive intervention) all these evils disappear. If God wants evil or likes it why does it not appear in heaven or before choice?

Whether you believe in an old Earth or a young Earth doesn't make much difference. Suffering sounds like it is only a temporary thing, and so does evil. What happens for the rest of eternity? Does God's creation still have freewill? Can those that believed in Jesus and end up going to heaven sin? Do they even have a choice anymore? And what about God's angels? When he created them did they have freewill? If they didn't, how come they rebelled? If they did, do they still have it? Can some of them still turn away from God at some later time, or some of the bad ones repent?

1. I believe in an older earth than what your misunderstanding of Genesis includes. Did you know that long before anyone ever thought the earth was older than thousands of years no Jewish calendar ever included the days before Adam was created (or his soul was). They only count back to his existence and stop. Why? Because the days before him are not earthly calendar days. There are many guesses what they are but they are certainly not days as we know them or they would have appeared on Jewish calendars.

2. Suffering according to the bible is most certainly temporary.

3. I do not know about freewill in heaven. My guess is that it will not be the same freewill we have now. The theological definition of freewill is the capacity to chose what we will. It may be that God perfects our wills so that we would not longer desire to rebel and sin even though we could choose if we wiled it. That definition is a little different from the standard secular one. However I hold no firm position on this issue. It is an interesting paradox.

4. No they cannot sin. I do not think anyone would ever desire to and so would never chose to. The bible says we will be made perfect upon resurrection. We no longer desire to sin.

5. In some sense we have already made our choice. Are you of the opinion that God will deprive me of something by limiting what I desire? I pray he would do it now instead of waiting.

6. The angels were given a choice. My understanding is once they decided they were stuck with what they chose. Are you going to get to the foul soon/

7. I do not think they were created with the capacity to rebel but at some point were offered the choice. That window is closed now.

8. I do not know why Satan initially rebelled. I have not been to heaven, I am not omniscient, nor angelic. Why do you think I would know these things? I have a lifetimes work just to understand the doctrines I am responsible for.

9. I do not believe the angels can rebel at this point nor do I believe Satan can repent because unlike us he was created with perfect knowledge of God. These are not subjects the bible gets detailed about, I can only give you my opinion based on a little fragmentary revelation.

10. No and no.


I do not believe you actually wanted any answers to these questions. There are much better sources than me a keystroke away. I believe you wanted me to commit to something so you can spring your diabolical and ingenious trap. Ok, let get it over with.

 

[1robin]

Rationalize yourself into believing that your mother's cancer was a hidden blessing if you want; that's your business. I will continue to see no good in the lymphoma that killed my father.

The existence of evil isn't an argument for God's necessity; it's an argument for either his non-existence or his incompetence.

I am not that presumptuous. I think her cancer was a random act of nature which God will rectify. It was used by God to reach me and that produced a blessing but I do not think God gave my mother cancer.

I see no good in cancer its self either but it is up to us if we let it embitter us or humble us. God said he set blessing and cursing before us it is up to us to choose the blessing. He even follows it by appealing to us to chose the blessing. God can use a problem to produce an ultimate good if we cooperate. All the miracles in the world will not change a hard heart nor will all the curses of hell harden a soft heart. It is up to us. Not to mention that being bitter regardless of God's existence I not healthy nor smart. If you rule out God you have ruled out the only solution or hope. Until you knew for sure doing that would be about the most unwise decision theoretically possible.

Anyway back to the issue at hand. No health problem is evidence God does not exist. Your turn.

 

[JM2C]

We're free from the fear of death, because we're going to live on?

What about the people that lived before Jesus "set us free"?

Did they know they were "slaves to the fear of dying"?

So, since Jews don't accept Jesus as their Messiah, do they and should they have a fear of dying?

As a Christian, I am speaking for myself. The fear of dying is subjectively of course and so as the “NOT fear of dying.” IOW, I cannot speak for the Jews or those people before Christ about their fears at all. Death is unknown to any human mind and that is the reason why human are afraid to die. We don’t know where we are going after death. However, we Christians do know where we are going after death and that is, with God in heaven. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living,

Mt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

How simple is that?

 

[1robin]

I'm surprised to see you trotting out this old creationist misrepresentation of the "Cambrian explosion". Off-topic it may be, but I'm reluctant to let it go unchallenged.

It's too early for me to be laughing this hard. In what universe is evolution a creationist creation. I never ever heard a creationist say anything on this issue. I got it from a scientists named Schroeder and it is consistent with the secular scholarship.

Firstly, this "geological instant" in which many extant phyla appeared lasted some 70-80 million years - considerably longer than the period that separates us from the dinosaurs. Rather a long instant, even by geological standards.
Secondly, predating the "Cambrian explosion" is a fossil record of unicellular life stretching over several billion years, together with an ever-growing record of the Precambrian metazoa from which Cambrian fauna evolved.
Thirdly, if "all major body plans" are supposed to have popped into existence in this geological instant, where do we find our own - the vertebrate (as opposed to protochordate) body plan?

Did you even read what I wrote? I was not commenting on the Cambrian layer in general but only on the appearance of the major body types. It is not called the Cambrian explosion for nothing. At the time these fossils were found the teaching of that day claimed that in excess of 100 million years were necessary were necessary for these basic body types to evolve. These fossils suggested that single celled organisms had evolved into crustaceans over less than 25 million years much less all the other body plans of the same period. No these fossils were sent to one the eras greatest experts on the Cambrian. His name was Walcott and he was the president of the Smithsonian. He was a theist but believed firmly in the slow gradual evolution model that was taught at the time. These over 60,000 fossils so overwhelmingly disproved the model that he buried them in basements and closets and did not display or study them. He was a gradual evolutionist why would he hide more evidence of it unless it was evidence against it? Many years later they were rediscovered by someone else and were eventually studied and became some of the most important finds ever. They are primarily what changed (ever so slowly) the gradual tree model into the bush model. They along with more recent finds produced terms like the Cambrian explosion (explosions are rarely slow processes) and punctuated equilibrium. It seems like every find these days overturns the older model more and more. Now they have them scrambling to explain vey sudden and rapid bursts of evolution. This is why the forest model is now being accepted. I believe once it is over the model we will have will no longer bear any resemblance to what Darwin inspired. Each step is a little more consistent with God and in the end I think (like cosmology) we will have a model that makes God a virtual necessity.

The fact single celled organism did not advance much in billions of years only makes the Cambrian hat much less explainable and more extraordinary. That was the exact point I made in my post you did not read.

So instead of it being a theory that Christians created it was one a Christian suppressed. It was actually created in secular scholarship based on sound evidence and loads of it.

However I have little interest in evolution outside a theological context so if you wish to have a biological or genetic debate you will have to look elsewhere. Not only is evolution the most useless theory I know of (even if perfectly true) it is also exceedingly boring IMO.

BTW what you quoted if in it's original context clearly implied that the body plans showed little previous evolution. It was not even a hint that evolution had no taken place. It was not a denial of evolution but was only used to point out the lack of integrity in academics at times.

 

[JM2C]

The whole thing is a little odd.

You say God could only defeat the devil by becoming human and dying?

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

 

[JM2C]

Something, a spirit being that turned bad, that he created out of nothing?

You meant the fallen angel. Yes! Everything came out of nothing “ex-nihilo” by the word of God all things were created, no nails, hammers or anything but by the word of God only.

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

[JM2C]

That is still roaming the spirit world and causing trouble?

Something that he will someday cast into the lake of fire?

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

But, that's already defeated?

Heb 2:14 “that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;”
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

After his defeat, the devil, the fear death no longer in power over those who are in Christ Jesus or the Christians, but to those “which believe not -2nd Cor. 4:4” the power of death is still enslaving them or they are still in cruel bondage.

Why keep him around?
Unless, God needs him and likes him to be doing what he's doing to us.

Until the 2nd coming of The Lord Jesus Christ

Something that he will someday cast into the lake of fire?

 

[JM2C]

Why does God punish and reward atheists and people from other religions? It's almost like it doesn't matter.

Mt 5:45 “for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”

The Lord Jesus' disciples have as their example God himself, who loves so indiscriminately that he sends sun and rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. Yet we must not thereby conclude that God's love toward people is in all respects without distinction, and that therefore all will be saved (see Matt. 25:31-46). Theologians call this love of God his "common grace" (i.e., the gracious favor God bestows "commonly," without distinction, on everyone).
-U.A.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

This thread kept popping up, so I went ahead and clicked.

Two years running now, almost. Interesting.

My question, first and foremost is this:

How did this thread go from a discussion about the children of Sandy Hook to Theism v. Atheism and Creationism v. Evolution? Is this divide; this anger; this frustration between these very different belief systems so wide that we can't even come together over this tragedy? Can we not mourn together? Can we not ponder and ask ourselves what went wrong and change what happened that day to protect the next kindergarten class? Are the Theists so sanctimonious as to believe that they have all the right answers and are the only ones who can comfort the families ripped apart that day? Are the Atheists so arrogant, insensitive and emotionally detached as to use the blood of these children to prove the nonexistence of God?

Deplorable. Shameful.

Theist and the Atheist. An outlaw motorcycle gang and the police. An Assemblies of God congregation and the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The Gay Rights activist and the Aryan Brotherhood. We all came together and drew a line of scrimage between these wounded families and Westboro Baptist Church, and said, "This far ... and NO FARTHER." Maybe that's the day we need to remember; the day when, a a nation, we stood shoulder to shoulder and protected those in need.

Since then: We got on gun control outrage and conspiracy theory hoaxes and theological debate kicks; and have completely forgotten.

Society failed Adam Lanza. Our broken mental health system allowed him to slip through the cracks. We paid an excrutiating price for our failure. 26 children paid an even bigger price. In our rage and pain, we have completely forgotten that Adam Lanza was a suffering, ill man and was not evil incarnate. We focus on the families of the children and casually dismiss the family of Adam, who were also wounded that day.

If the Atheist wishes to deal with this tragedy in pragmatic, detached ways, so be it. If the Theist wishes to wrestle with "God's Plan" to deal with this tragedy, so be it. But in the meantime, since the grieving process should be long behind us by now, we should focus on what went wrong that day; how it was that we failed Lanza and those wonderful children; then figure out what we can do about it and do it. There are many more Lanzas in this world and there are plenty more elementary schools in this world. They need our help and they need our protection.

 

[johnhanks]

It's too early for me to be laughing this hard. In what universe is evolution a creationist creation.

You are being disingenuous. You brought the issue up in the context of declaring evolution eminently falsifiable - implying that your "geological instant" within which all major body plans allegedly appeared contributed to its falsification.

Did you even read what I wrote? I was not commenting on the Cambrian layer in general but only on the appearance of the major body types.

Did you read what I wrote? Some "major body types" are conspicuously missing in the Cambrian; and precambrian precursors are being discovered.

[Long historical screed snipped] ... I have little interest in evolution outside a theological context so if you wish to have a biological or genetic debate you will have to look elsewhere.

Evolution is a biological theory, not a theological proposition; if you're debating the topic at all you're having a biological debate.

Not only is evolution the most useless theory I know of (even if perfectly true) it is also exceedingly boring IMO.

Odd, then, that you felt impelled to introduce such a useless and boring idea into the discussion. Do you feel threatened by it?

Happy to discuss further on the Evolution/Creation board, but I won't derail this venerable thread any further.

 

[CG Didymus]

Society failed Adam Lanza. Our broken mental health system allowed him to slip through the cracks.

If there is a Christian God, why did he allow him to slip through the cracks? Why didn't he send one of his people at the right time, at the right place, to show him how much this invisible God loves him? Is he evil and wanted it to happen? For the greater good of course.

 

[McBell]

I think you have a very big misconception of the word or the name “Christian”
You think Christians are more on politics than religion. Well, perhaps you should read more about the history of Christianity. True Christians are different from other semi-Christians or semi-hybrid Christians.

Your No True Scotsman is also nothing more than a big steaming pile of self serving crap.

I have to wonder if using a big steaming pile of self serving bull **** as your strawman is the best you got..?