Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[McBell]

Not all men choose sin? really? based on the biblical definitions of sin, do you know anyone like ever who has lived sin free? It is not about God not wanting to call anyone, It is about no man would seek God on his own.

yes.
Of course, I do not hold your Calvinized view of the scriptures, so perhaps you should be more specific about how you think the Bible defines "sin"...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes those are seemingly contradictory, But I was responding to someone who possibly may have ears to hear and eyes to see, at any rate both are actually true based on scripture.

What does "having ears to hear and eyes to see" have to do with it? Do the words magically change into something else if you wish really hard?

"God is not the author of confusion"
"those he has given ears to hear will hear, and those given eyes to see will see"

If someone is seeking truth and opens the Bible,God could surely open it up for them, or he can let them remain If they are only using the Word for unGodly purpose.

I'm seeking truth. I've opened the Bible. Despite approaching it with an open mind and sincerity, I was not convinced by it.

It sounds like you're saying that everyone who reads the Bible but doesn't up as a Christian is approaching it in bad faith (no pun intended), but that's just not true.

 

[Falvlun]

It sounds like you're saying that everyone who reads the Bible but doesn't up as a Christian is approaching it in bad faith (no pun intended), but that's just not true.

And it's not even true according to her theology. For you to accept Christianity, God must draw you to it, and make you convinced of it himself. You have no part in this; it is all God's doing. You can read the Bible in good faith all you want, but unless God has chosen you, you just won't get it.

 

[Lady B]

What does "having ears to hear and eyes to see" have to do with it? Do the words magically change into something else if you wish really hard?


I'm seeking truth. I've opened the Bible. Despite approaching it with an open mind and sincerity, I was not convinced by it.

It sounds like you're saying that everyone who reads the Bible but doesn't up as a Christian is approaching it in bad faith (no pun intended), but that's just not true.

No Penguin, I am not saying this, or not intending to say this. I was speaking more about those who persue the Bible in order to seek out the faults they wish to find and to use it against others in debate. That is not seeking God, that is studying a book or religion for arguments sake. In your own personal seeking of truth, I am sure you were sincere and I can only say It was not your time to know. When I use the ears and eyes things, It is a common phrase used over 7 times in the gospels, meaning who has the spirit dwelling within them will hear and have understanding. When Christ was asked why he spoke in parables.

“And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables.
“That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?” Mark 4:10-13
​

 

[Lady B]

And it's not even true according to her theology. For you to accept Christianity, God must draw you to it, and make you convinced of it himself. You have no part in this; it is all God's doing. You can read the Bible in good faith all you want, but unless God has chosen you, you just won't get it.

Yes Falvlun, That is what I believe Scripture says. Thank you

 

[idav]

I am not one of the Christians in this forum who blame Adam for my sin, Thru Adam sin entered the world. period. There is no innocent persons, no man woman or child can say he/she is without sin. When we stand before God in judgement, no man can say " Adam made me do it".

Let us look close at the choices we all have, do you honestly never remeber choosing wrong? I do, I have done things knowing before hand they are wrong, yet choosing to do them anyway. I have done things wrong without knowing, yet seeing afterwards how wrong they really were. I have had choices put before me all my life and I have not always chose good. I cannot blame anyone but myself for my choices and I can't say I am any better than anyone else who battles sin. If a person really knows himself good, he will see all the choices he himself makes, not God, not satan, not Adam, but himself alone.

Being a sinner doesn't mean you can't believe in god by choice. All that god created was good and humans are the image of God which coincides with God loves and our belief giving us grace as stated in John 4:16. The difference isn't whether we sin(thats a given) but whether God chooses to forgive us. He doesn't have to draw us or some such thing. He chose Jacob, saved, chose David, saved, didn't matter what they did really they were already chosen and drawing them to him wasn't an issue.

 

[LuisDantas]

Not all men choose sin? really? based on the biblical definitions of sin, do you know anyone like ever who has lived sin free? It is not about God not wanting to call anyone, It is about no man would seek God on his own.

What a bold statement. And such an unfair one, too.

 

[Lady B]

What a bold statement. And such an unfair one, too.

But it is Scripture.

Romans 3:10-19

English Standard Version (ESV)

10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

 

[LuisDantas]

Scripture is meaningless by itself. It takes no responsibility for its use.

It is actual people who decide how, if and when to use it.

 

[Falvlun]

But it is Scripture.

Romans 3:10-19

English Standard Version (ESV)

10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

Based upon the surrounding text, I don't think that means that no one can ever do good. I think it means that no one is perfect: we all fail at some point or another. I mean, if we were to take
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
to mean that no one ever tells the truth, we could look around us and disprove that easily. I tell the truth all the time, and sometimes, even when it is hard. I'm sure you do the same. The same with doing good deeds or seeking God. People do those things all the time.

It would be nice to see where this quote came from though, to see what its original setting was as well. It appears to have been taken from some other text; the author of Romans did not write it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But it is Scripture.

Romans 3:10-19

English Standard Version (ESV)

10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

No one is righteous?

Genesis 6:9 (ESV): Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation.

Job 1:1 (ESV): There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil.

Psalms 14:5 (ESV): There they are in great terror,
for God is with the generation of the righteous.

Psalms 34:19 (ESV): Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the LORD delivers him out of them all.

Psalms 37:29 (ESV): The righteous shall inherit the land and dwell upon it forever.

Proverbs 9:9 (ESV): Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser; teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning.

Proverbs 12:26 (ESV): One who is righteous is a guide to his neighbor, but the way of the wicked leads them astray.

Isaiah 60:21 (ESV): Your people shall all be righteous;
they shall possess the land forever,
the branch of my planting, the work of my hands,
that I might be glorified.

Lamentations 4:13 (ESV): This was for the sins of her prophets
and the iniquities of her priests,
who shed in the midst of her
the blood of the righteous.

So... the Bible was wrong about Noah and Job, and all the rest of the people and generations it describes in the verses above? Were they not righteous? The Bible says they were.

 

[Lady B]

Based upon the surrounding text, I don't think that means that no one can ever do good. I think it means that no one is perfect: we all fail at some point or another. I mean, if we were to take
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
to mean that no one ever tells the truth, we could look around us and disprove that easily. I tell the truth all the time, and sometimes, even when it is hard. I'm sure you do the same. The same with doing good deeds or seeking God. People do those things all the time.

It would be nice to see where this quote came from though, to see what its original setting was as well. It appears to have been taken from some other text; the author of Romans did not write it.

It is from the ESV, english standard edition, though I prefer the king james,I pulled up the least complicated translation from this link:
Romans 3:10-19 ESV - as it is written:

You can use the dropdown to find the verses in any translation.

As far as 'no one does good', If your motives for goodness are not God centered then they are not Good in God's eyes.The Bible does not mean none does good ever, but God's standard for Good is not ours.and apart from God, well all our works are worthless.

 

[Lady B]

No one is righteous?

Genesis 6:9 (ESV): Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation.

Job 1:1 (ESV): There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil.

Psalms 14:5 (ESV): There they are in great terror,
for God is with the generation of the righteous.

Psalms 34:19 (ESV): Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the LORD delivers him out of them all.

Psalms 37:29 (ESV): The righteous shall inherit the land and dwell upon it forever.

Proverbs 9:9 (ESV): Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser; teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning.

Proverbs 12:26 (ESV): One who is righteous is a guide to his neighbor, but the way of the wicked leads them astray.

Isaiah 60:21 (ESV): Your people shall all be righteous;
they shall possess the land forever,
the branch of my planting, the work of my hands,
that I might be glorified.

Lamentations 4:13 (ESV): This was for the sins of her prophets
and the iniquities of her priests,
who shed in the midst of her
the blood of the righteous.

So... the Bible was wrong about Noah and Job, and all the rest of the people and generations it describes in the verses above? Were they not righteous? The Bible says they were.

No the Bible was not wrong, They were righteous in God's sight, They feared God, these were Godly men, chosen men.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No the Bible was not wrong, They were righteous in God's sight, They feared God, these were Godly men, chosen men.

So the Bible was wrong when it said "None is righteous, no, not one"?

 

[Lady B]

So the Bible was wrong when it said "None is righteous, no, not one"?

Clearly That verse means apart from God none is righteous,no,not one.
Calling it a night guys, good debating today, Thanks.

 

[McBell]

Clearly That verse means apart from God none is righteous,no,not one.
Calling it a night guys, good debating today, Thanks.

And here we see just how unreliable "can back up with scripture" truly is...
Seeing as you use scripture to back up your point and scripture was used to back up the exact opposite point.

 

[NIX]

Clearly, 'scriptures' always mean what a person is told they mean- wants them to mean- or sees in them (for whatever other reasons).

 

[McBell]

Clearly, 'scriptures' always mean what a person is told they mean- wants them to mean- or sees in them (for whatever other reasons).

and any contradicting scripture is simply dismissed as we see in post #455

Of course, they also dismiss their dismissal by claiming some "special understanding" of scipture whilst usually making claims on how "clear" the scriptures are.

 

[Falvlun]

It is from the ESV, english standard edition, though I prefer the king james,I pulled up the least complicated translation from this link:
Romans 3:10-19 ESV - as it is written:

You can use the dropdown to find the verses in any translation.

No, I was asking where that section of verse is from-- it is not originally from Romans or probably even the NT, which is clear because it prefaces that section with "as it is written..."

As far as 'no one does good', If your motives for goodness are not God centered then they are not Good in God's eyes.The Bible does not mean none does good ever, but God's standard for Good is not ours.and apart from God, well all our works are worthless.

So, if I help feed hungry kids because I subscribe to a humanitarian ethic (that we should help people just because that is the right thing to do), God would consider that evil? He only considers feeding hungry kids a good act when you do it to glorify him?

That's really messed up.

 

[Falvlun]

Clearly That verse means apart from God none is righteous,no,not one.

And yet it doesn't specifically say that. You are adding words-- your interpretation-- to the Scripture. That's what we have been getting at all along, when you claim that you do not claim anything apart from God's word. Well, you just did.