Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[allright]

So the Bible was wrong when it said "None is righteous, no, not one"?

:run:

Its the way the phrase is used in the Bible, it means the overwhelming majority

Example : Genesis 6:12 "All flesh had corrupted their way"
Genesis 7:1 to Noah "I have seen you are righteous before Me in this generation"

 

[Lady B]

And yet it doesn't specifically say that. You are adding words-- your interpretation-- to the Scripture. That's what we have been getting at all along, when you claim that you do not claim anything apart from God's word. Well, you just did.

No I was not adding to the verse I was defining it. If you look at the passages where God deems Noah and Job righteous, why does he? because they feared God, or they were loved by God. what it does not say is that men who reject God, hate God or curse God are counted as righteous. Men were attributed with righteous only from God himself. None apart from him are.

As far as your works are concerned, according to scripture:
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[Falvlun]

No I was not adding to the verse I was defining it. If you look at the passages where God deems Noah and Job righteous, why does he? because they feared God, or they were loved by God. what it does not say is that men who reject God, hate God or curse God are counted as righteous. Men were attributed with righteous only from God himself. None apart from him are.

As far as your works are concerned, according to scripture:
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I'm not talking about the verses that Penguin presented. I am talking about the verses in Romans where is says that "no man is righteous, no not one". You previously claimed that that was an absolute statement, which if we did want to be literal, it is. There is no "except for those that fear God or that God loves" written in that text. That is an interpretation you are adding.

 

[Lady B]

I'm not talking about the verses that Penguin presented. I am talking about the verses in Romans where is says that "no man is righteous, no not one". You previously claimed that that was an absolute statement, which if we did want to be literal, it is. There is no "except for those that fear God or that God loves" written in that text. That is an interpretation you are adding.

No, I am trying to show you what the verse is saying. It is not saying never has there ever been a righteous man. It is saying to a people, no one is righteous, no one is better than the other, no one can call himself Good. Righteousness is imputed to men by God. No man can earn for himself righteousness.

The passages you were asking about that romans reference are Psalms 14:1 and genesis 19:31.

 

[Son of Logic]

This was brought out many times by Atheists and agnostics, I would like to discuss it with you in a rational and respectful manner. My disclaimer is I am a true 5 point Calvinist and If that is offensive to you,You are free to close the thread now. If I may suggest , we leave out all slander against My God in the process of this discussion, slander being pre-defined as name calling as If he were real and present.Questioning scriptures depiction of God however you interpret is allowed. Example: Is God evil? Fair enough?

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He has pre-ordained them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God. Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

You touched on the topic of justice, as to how you would provide comfort after a loved was murdered or such. I take it the assumption is that their can be no permanent justice in the atheist world view and that there is indeed ultimate justice built into your system of belief. However, as we both know, a majority of Bible based teachings offer that the murderer can indeed escape ultimate punishment by way of confession, remorse and the honest desire to attain forgiveness and salvation. However, if the victim who was murdered was not saved, did not believe in God, etc...he is doomed. This is why the suspension of logic is required when faith based moral instruction or rationale is involved. As a Calvinist, you may not share the belief in achievable salvation, however, the idea of preordained attrocities, suffering and death to achieve an end goal is all the more disturbing and far surpasses any "evil" the Satan character ever conceived.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

:run:

Its the way the phrase is used in the Bible, it means the overwhelming majority

Example : Genesis 6:12 "All flesh had corrupted their way"
Genesis 7:1 to Noah "I have seen you are righteous before Me in this generation"

So... in Bible-speak, "not one" means "some, but not most"?

 

[Falvlun]

No, I am trying to show you what the verse is saying. It is not saying never has there ever been a righteous man. It is saying to a people, no one is righteous, no one is better than the other, no one can call himself Good. Righteousness is imputed to men by God. No man can earn for himself righteousness.

The parts I highlighted in purple are not what the verse says. That is what you have interpreted the verse to mean. No where in that verse does it say that there a) is any righteous men, b) that God makes men righteous.

It is possible that these concepts are written somewhere else in the Bible. But what you are claiming those verses say is merely your interpretation of them, and not the literal meaning of the words. Cuz the words clearly state that there is no righteous person, no exceptions.

The passages you were asking about that romans reference are Psalms 14:1 and genesis 19:31.

Psalms 14.1 only claims that atheists can do no good, not all people, like the passage indicates. And Gen 19.31 must be a typo since that's about Lot's daughters.

 

[Falvlun]

So... in Bible-speak, "not one" means "some, but not most"?

I take a more nuanced interpretation myself. I think it more likely that those verses indicate that no one is perfect-- we all fail at some point or another-- not that we can never do good.

But that's just my preferred interpretation, and fully acknowledge that that is not the literal reading.

 

[Falvlun]

As far as your works are concerned, according to scripture:
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

That's just more evidence for me that this is an unjust, hopeless, and unmotivating philosophy.

When one moment of weakness is worth more to God than a lifetime of good, that shows God to have a very unjust and warped sense of priorities. It is a philosophy that tells us that evil is stronger than good, and that hate will beat love every time.

 

[assyrianpride]

everyone has their own reality, including God. we can very rarely see into God's reality, so we usually cannot understand the choices that God makes. it is a hopeless effort to try. but whatever is done by God must by definition be good, so we can conclude that things like you mentioned are not done by god, but by the devil. and why god allows the devil to do this kind of evil, we cannot be sure. i have two theories:

1) there must be a form of population control so the earth's resources are not used up too quickly. this would have already happened if there was no death.

2) god is perfect, so whatever he created has in theory the capacity to be perfect. so since God kind of "messed up" on this world, im pretty sure hes not focusing all his attention on this one, but is occupying his time with creating other worlds, some of which i am sure are perfect. i mean, God is perfect, so this corrupted world cannot possibly be his greatest accomplishment (although he did care enough about it that he decided to come back and offer us a chance for redemption)

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't think scripture was ever meant to make sense in and of itself. There is considerable evidence pointing towards it being meant as a common ground that must be interpreted and explained by a oral tradition that is arguably more important and more meaningful than the text of the scripture itself.

Perhaps most important of all, said tradition is also at least potentially capable of adjusting to the language and psychological profile of the people involved, as well as of improving and correcting the religious teaching as need be.

In other words, religion is meant to be dharmic, far as I can tell.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

everyone has their own reality, including God. we can very rarely see into God's reality, so we usually cannot understand the choices that God makes. it is a hopeless effort to try. but whatever is done by God must by definition be good, so we can conclude that things like you mentioned are not done by god, but by the devil. and why god allows the devil to do this kind of evil, we cannot be sure.

Two thoughts:

- you say "whatever is done by God must by definition be good"... why must this be so? The definitions I have for "God" and "good" don't imply this. What definitions are you using?

- setting that issue aside for a moment, if everything that God does is in fact good, isn't sitting by and doing nothing while evil is perpetrated one of the things that God does?

You say that everything that God does is good, and that God allows the devil to inflict evil on the world. Combine these two ideas together and we arrive at a conclusion: it is good to allow the devil to inflict evil on the world.

i have two theories:

1) there must be a form of population control so the earth's resources are not used up too quickly. this would have already happened if there was no death.

That seems like a rather imperfect system from a supposedly perfect creator.

2) god is perfect, so whatever he created has in theory the capacity to be perfect. so since God kind of "messed up" on this world, im pretty sure hes not focusing all his attention on this one, but is occupying his time with creating other worlds, some of which i am sure are perfect. i mean, God is perfect, so this corrupted world cannot possibly be his greatest accomplishment (although he did care enough about it that he decided to come back and offer us a chance for redemption)

How does a perfect creator create a less-than-perfect creation? A creator who needs a few tries to get it right isn't so perfect.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't think scripture was ever meant to make sense in and of itself. There is considerable evidence pointing towards it being meant as a common ground that must be interpreted and explained by a oral tradition that is arguably more important and more meaningful than the text of the scripture itself.

Perhaps most important of all, said tradition is also at least potentially capable of adjusting to the language and psychological profile of the people involved, as well as of improving and correcting the religious teaching as need be.

In other words, religion is meant to be dharmic, far as I can tell.

I may be misquoting horribly or attributing this to the wrong person, but I remember one of the members here (sojourner, IIRC), describing the Bible as something like "a blog of humanity's relationship with the divine." I can make sense of it in that context. I can't make sense of it as the inerrant word of God.

 

[LuisDantas]

Might be. What I don't think is reasonable is expecting written scripture (from any religion, but particularly the Abrahamic ones) to be the one and only, final authority for deciding what is religiously valid.

From what I have read of both the Bible and the Quran, it is very hard to believe either was ever meant for that purpose. But then again, I don't think it is a reasonable expectation for any scripture at all.

 

[sandandfoam]

Might be. What I don't think is reasonable is expecting written scripture (from any religion, but particularly the Abrahamic ones) to be the one and only, final authority for deciding what is religiously valid.

From what I have read of both the Bible and the Quran, it is very hard to believe either was ever meant for that purpose. But then again, I don't think it is a reasonable expectation for any scripture at all.

I believe that God reveals Himself in scripture. I also God reveals Himself in the world. I see nature as Theophany.
I think we should read scripture in conjunction with the Book of Creation and I see the same God when I look out as when I look in.

 

[LuisDantas]

I wish more people did, Stephen.

 

[CG Didymus]

and any contradicting scripture is simply dismissed as we see in post #455

Of course, they also dismiss their dismissal by claiming some "special understanding" of scipture whilst usually making claims on how "clear" the scriptures are.

You know you are always right, except when you are always wrong. You make the Bible so simple. It is the very opposite of how others see it, unless it is the same. I'm going now to live my life of righteousness which I know is like filthy rags to God. I hope he uses oxy-clean.
PS: I know you've probably been told, but there's something crawling on your screen. I thought it was on my screen and hit it with a hammer. Oh, well, there must be some divine reason.

 

[CG Didymus]

Hey Lady B, How are you? Last night I thought about the movie Pollyanna, she always saw the positive. She told the preacher that there was plenty of "positive" verses in the Bible, but he always preached on the negative ones. For the non-believer or an ex-believer, it's similar. It's easier to focus on the negative--the contradictory, the verses that make God to be a cosmic bad guy. You know that the positive verses about who God fill you and make you spiritually alive. You see the verses that "appear" negative, that "seem" contradictory, but find ways to explain them to your liking. You might say that it's like God making a spiritual omelet--a few eggs had to be broken. Unfortunately, those eggs are people. People that appear innocent. Like Jobs kids, what did they do? They didn't get the opportunity to live a full life. And it was God that gave permission to the hit man. Job doesn't bother me, though. I see it as a nice, mythical story to teach a lesson. But in real life, real people do die--Like the kids at the school in Sandy Hook. For an all-knowing, all-loving God that is in control and orchestrating the events, it seems he should be able to get his will accomplished with less collateral damage. To say that in his fore-knowledge, he knew those kids wouldn't accept him. Or, that those that did believe and are happier place now in heaven with Jesus, only eases the believer's conscience. To the non-believer it looks like God's just playing games with us. It's the teachings and the way Christianity is presented that pushes a lot of us away. We look into other spiritual teachings that are easier to live with, that explain the real world in more just and sensible ways. We could be happy. We try to be happy, but then we have to put up with Christians telling us our new ways are false. That pushes some of us to look at that dark side of the Christian God and attack it. We're then called "blind" and "ignorant." We point out all the contradictory verses and say "no," that it's the Christians that are blind and ignorant. It's scary to think that you might be right...That God flooded the whole world and is going to send all non-believers--what a dilemma. You take care Lady B.

 

[Me Myself]

what makes you think the most high God is some kind of servant ?

What makes you think the most high can be anything BUT the most perfect and absolute servant? If you think there is any remote form of shame coming with the role, our views on the issue are as backwards as a reflection in a mirror.

If you are the most high in a group, you are BOUNDED to be the one who gives greater and more valuable service. (invaluable actually)

 

[starlite]

God never has, must not and can not intervene without destroying the rational structure of the universe and our free will with it. If God was ever going to intervene, He would have done it when Jesus cleansed the Temple for that very purpose.

So you are saying that God didn't intervene at the Flood and eliminate all badness from the earth? And yet the earth remained as well as righteous Noah and his family.