Similar to my last question: you say they were perfect - i.e. sinless - when they disobeyed God. So there's no sin in disobeying God? If so, why were they punished?
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Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?
- Thread starter Lady B
- Start date
Similar to my last question: you say they were perfect - i.e. sinless - when they disobeyed God. So there's no sin in disobeying God? If so, why were they punished?
outhouse
Atheistically
Many people will do anything to avoid the truth.
Avoiding education and knowledge is a freedom here.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
You can not inherit sin.
The Bible actually says they caused themselves to be turned out of a perfect world - into one of knowing good and evil = choice.
Which means one is born into a world with choice = good, - or evil.
They are not born with sin, or evil.
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I'm sure you feel better saying that but scripture shows otherwise. God is wrathful, jealous, has anger issues, vengeful even to the 4th generation. He really has a thing for killing babies and children. Like when he personally snuffs David's baby, or causes the woman to eat her child, of has 40 kids mauled by bears, and then there is his mass murder and genocide like killing the first born of Egypt, wiping out cities or planet-cide when he almost wipes out all life.
Yep and the reason is because god knowingly created evil and knowingly lets it run amok.
Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things."
God is all powerful and all knowing. No one can disobey him unless he wills it so. A truly good being would not create evil. God created evil...
Nada
#
I'm sorry, I meant their offspring inherited death,not sin.I must correct that.Thanks.Sometimes I type fast and get ahead of myself.I am aware that it is imperfection that was inherited by Adam and Eve's offspring..Imperfection leads to death.Thats what I meant. I am also aware that sin is the action of disobeying Gods commandments.
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So how would you know what she meant?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Well thanks to you too. The depth of your knowledge is astounding, but it's your fairness and respect you show all of us that is truly amazing.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
"In that day"? Didn't Adam die some 900 years later? So God is perfect in every way, except in giving dictation? Or, did Moses write it down wrong? No, that doesn't work either does it, because God's Word is perfect also, correct? So, even though it say on "that day" God really meant on a different day. So God speaks in general terms, not literal terms? No, that doesn't work, because if the Bible isn't literal, then what good is it? Fallible people would just come up with all sorts of weird interpretations. And, we all know that could never happen.
So the Bible has to be literal. Therefore, Adam died that day, but God must have resurrected him, and then cursed him and made him suffer for 900 years before letting him finally die... and go where? Was hell created yet? It must have been, because Adam was imperfect and, therefore, unable to enter heaven. Or, he's been in the grave all this time. His body turning to dust and his soul or spirit, whatever you believe is the eternal part of man, sitting there in the dirt, waiting for judgement day? But where is Adam's soul going to go? Did he ever repent? Who knows, but why would that matter because that would only be his "works". And the NT says that your works can't get you into heaven.
Or, maybe, just maybe, could it possibly be, that it's all myth? No, impossible. That would make too much sense. It has to be true, because who would make up stuff like this?
Shuttlecraft
.Navigator
Some bits yes, some bits no.
Surely you don't think a snake really did talk?..
Obviously the snake was just an analogy for Satan-
SATAN - "Hmm, that apple looks yummy.."
EVE - "I'm not supposed to touch it"
SATAN - "Don't be daft, if you don't have it Adam will, and then laugh at you for being a dumb little girly, you know how men are"
EVE - "I'm forbidden to have it"
SATAN - "Hmm...Your skin looks a bit dry, fresh fruit would work wonders for your complexion"
EVE - "Leave me alone!"
SATAN - "It'll just rot if left on the tree, what a waste.."
EVE - "Shut up"
SATAN - "Apples are good for teeth, you don't want yours to turn black do you?"
EVE - "Oh be quiet!"
SATAN - "You'll get scurvy without vitamin C and your gums will puff up like a boxers gumshield"..
EVE - "Clam up!"
SATAN - "Okay okay, scuse me for breathing, none of my business if you want to end up looking like a cross between Mike Tyson and Ugly Betty"..
EVE - "Hmm okay, I'd better eat it, but don't tell anyone"
SATAN - "Sure, sure, you can trust me"..
Nada
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Its actually much simpler than that.When we read the holy scriptures we can clearly see that God views days differently than we see them.Here is a perfect example in scripture.
2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
Adam lived to be 930 years of age.So, in that day, he surely died as stated.
Nada
#
Some bits yes, some bits no.
Surely you don't think a snake really did talk?..
Obviously the snake was just an analogy for Satan-
SATAN - "Hmm, that apple looks yummy.."
EVE - "I'm not supposed to touch it"
SATAN - "Don't be daft, if you don't have it Adam will, and then laugh at you for being a dumb little girly, you know how men are"
EVE - "I'm forbidden to have it"
SATAN - "Hmm...Your skin looks a bit dry, fresh fruit would work wonders for your complexion"
EVE - "Leave me alone!"
SATAN - "It'll just rot if left on the tree, what a waste.."
EVE - "Shut up"
SATAN - "Apples are good for teeth, you don't want yours to turn black do you?"
EVE - "Oh be quiet!"
SATAN - "You'll get scurvy without vitamin C and your gums will puff up like a boxers gumshield"..
EVE - "Clam up!"
SATAN - "Okay okay, scuse me for breathing, none of my business if you want to end up looking like a cross between Mike Tyson and Ugly Betty"..
EVE - "Hmm okay, I'd better eat it, but don't tell anyone"
SATAN - "Sure, sure, you can trust me"..
It actually never mentions an apple in the holy scriptures.It says fruit.An Apple is something man invented when discussing this,not God.
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Shuttlecraft
.Navigator
Shush mate, I'm having to dumb it down for the masses, 'apple' and 'snake' are the accepted stereotype words (even though inaccurate) and I don't want to confuse them by using 'fruit' and 'serpent'..
Nada
#
Lol....Ok, ok.Shush mate, I'm having to dumb it down for the masses, 'apple' and 'snake' are the accepted stereotype words (even though inaccurate) and I don't want to confuse them by using 'fruit' and 'serpent'..
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Shush mate, I'm having to dumb it down for the masses, 'apple' and 'snake' are the accepted stereotype words (even though inaccurate) and I don't want to confuse them by using 'fruit' and 'serpent'..
By "masses" I assume you mean Christians? As they are the ones teaching and telling this story, with an apple. Check out any Sunday-school.
All of the translations say Serpent, and Fruit or produce.
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Shuttlecraft
.Navigator
Bible Student said : “God created mankind perfect according to the holy scriptures “ post 4794
Hi bible student :
I am a Christian and do not want you to think that I am simply criticizing you to spite your belief, but I do not remember any scripture saying Adam and Eve were created morally “perfect”. (If you actually know of such a verse, could you share it?) Rather, I think they were placed in the garden in a morally naïve state, (an “amoral”, not immoral state), not having knowledge or understanding of good nor evil.
I believe, logically, to be Morally “perfect”, one must first possess the ability to exercise a moral choice and then always willing choose correctly. I could be wrong on this point and would invite corrections.
Viole : I very much like your logic, that a being that that is morally perfect, will not, of it’s own will, make a morally imperfect choice to become imperfect. Very insightful and thought-provoking.
Clear
σιτωειδρακω
Hi bible student :
I am a Christian and do not want you to think that I am simply criticizing you to spite your belief, but I do not remember any scripture saying Adam and Eve were created morally “perfect”. (If you actually know of such a verse, could you share it?) Rather, I think they were placed in the garden in a morally naïve state, (an “amoral”, not immoral state), not having knowledge or understanding of good nor evil.
I believe, logically, to be Morally “perfect”, one must first possess the ability to exercise a moral choice and then always willing choose correctly. I could be wrong on this point and would invite corrections.
Viole : I very much like your logic, that a being that that is morally perfect, will not, of it’s own will, make a morally imperfect choice to become imperfect. Very insightful and thought-provoking.
Clear
σιτωειδρακω
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
Dude - a snake is a serpent.
NOW - how about those Christians pumping out that erroneous apple information?
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Nada
#
What is meant by perfect is that Mankind,meaning Adam and Eve, were created without imperfection.Meaning,they would not die.They had no sin.I never once brought up the word "morally."
Bible student clarified : “What is meant by perfect is that Mankind, meaning Adam and Eve, were created without imperfection. Meaning,they would not die. “
thank you for the clarification, However, you told another poster that you meant : Perfect in the sense as spoken of about Adam and Eve means without sin.
Since "sinless" is a different characteristic than "undying". Your descriptions confused me.
If I understand this clarification, your personal opinion of perfection for Adam and Eve referred to their bodies that would not die, though their spirits were imperfect in that they were naive, amoral (not immoral) and ignorant of good and evil (before partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil). Is this correct?
Clear
thank you for the clarification, However, you told another poster that you meant : Perfect in the sense as spoken of about Adam and Eve means without sin.
Since "sinless" is a different characteristic than "undying". Your descriptions confused me.
If I understand this clarification, your personal opinion of perfection for Adam and Eve referred to their bodies that would not die, though their spirits were imperfect in that they were naive, amoral (not immoral) and ignorant of good and evil (before partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil). Is this correct?
Clear
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Nada
#
Im sorry you misunderstood.
They were not imperfect in any way.Just because you do not understand something does not make you imperfect.A baby is not considered imperfect because it does not know things.It is considered imperfect because it has inherited death through imperfection by way of our original mother and fathers actions in the Garden of Eden.