Why don't atheists seem like atheists?

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Based on life-experience, I mostly seem to be fond of the half-arsed forms that don't take themselves too seriously. I've met enough Muslims that I have respected to not write off Islam, but would struggle to tell you whether this is a matter of their faith being reasonable, or the people holding humanist ideals and interpreting their religion through it.

I think that you're saying something similar to what I said. There is a spectrum of theists from heavenly indoctrinated by politicized Christian sources to those that don't drink much from that cup, and that the less zealous the believer, the more humanists have in common with him and the more they find him to be a good neighbor respectful of liberal, democratic, Enlightenment values.

The same would be true of Muslims and Jews.

 

[Notanumber]

*chuckles*

Based on life-experience, I mostly seem to be fond of the half-arsed forms that don't take themselves too seriously. I've met enough Muslims that I have respected to not write off Islam, but would struggle to tell you whether this is a matter of their faith being reasonable, or the people holding humanist ideals and interpreting their religion through it.

Quaranists have seemed pretty reasonable to me, in terms of holding their own beliefs, but not forcing them on others.

At the risk of going off topic.

Can I ask if the respected Muslims are living in the Islamic community or are they more integrated into western society?

We will have to agree to disagree about Quaranists.

Thanks.

 

[Underhill]

Only thing true about generalizations, such as 'All atheists are anti-theists,' is that they are always false.

By the evidence, many Theists are angry, distrustful, paranoid, and hateful toward not only atheist, but frequently simply those that believe in a different religion, or no religion.

From: Atheists remain most disliked religious minority in the U.S.

"Ten years ago University of Minnesota sociologists conducted research showing that, among a long list of racial and religious minority groups, atheists were the most disliked group of people in the United States. Last month they followed up with new research that shows that Americans still have negative opinions of atheists and the non-religious--and now they have a good theory about why that is.

Their findings are available online in the article “Atheists and Other Cultural Outsiders: Moral Boundaries and the Non-Religious in the United States” (Social Forces). The research team comprises Department of Sociology professors Penny Edgell, Douglas Hartmann, and Joseph Gerteis and graduate student Evan Stewart.

Survey data collected in 2014 shows that, compared to data collected in 2003, Americans have sharpened their negative views of atheists, despite an increase in people identifying as non-religious and an increase in public discussion of non-belief.

The findings of this most recent survey support the argument that atheists are persistent cultural outsiders in the United States because they are perceived to have rejected cultural values and practices understood as essential to private morality, civic virtue, and national identity. Moreover, any refusal to embrace a religious identity of any type is troubling for a large portion of Americans.

Forty percent of Americans view the non-religious--atheist, agnostic, no-religion, and spiritual-but-not-religious--as problematic, even though 33 percent of the survey respondents identify with those categories.

By the numbers, researchers found that:

• 40% of Americans disapprove of non-religion
• 33% of respondents fall into a broad “religious nones” category: 3.8% as atheist, 3.5% as agnostic, 7.1 % as “spiritual but not religious,” and 18.5% as “nothing in particular.”
• 27% of Americans say that atheists “don't share my morals or values.”

A great deal of that stems directly from the teaching of the churches. The bible says there is nothing good without god. Many preachers teach that very message on a regular basis. So of course those who go to church don't trust us. They have been indoctrinated not to.

And then people wonder why we don't like religion? I have no issue with religious people who mind their own business. But I have a serious problem with people publicly complaining that I have no morals just because I choose to not believe in a god. The entire notion is offensive and absurd.

There is a reason why every major religion on the planet has some kind of moral code. It isn't because their gods spoke to them each individually and ordered it so. It's because a code of conduct is logical and every successful society through history had one of some kind.

 

[shunyadragon]

Whatever you mean by "God," one need not assume that it does not exist to be an atheist. One only need not assume that it does.

I believe you are describing Agnosticism in bold. Atheists by definition do not believe God(s) exist.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well ,. . . ah, anti-Theism would only mean opposed to Theism, and not necessarily angry, aggressive or commit violent acts against Theist.

 

[metis]

Can I ask if the respected Muslims are living in the Islamic community or are they more integrated into western society?

The largest Islamic community not in an Islamic state is a short drive from where I live near Detroit, and the answer to your question is both. Dearborn and Hamtramack have a significant number of Muslims, but they live in different neighborhoods that also contain non-Muslims, plus many live in different areas outside of these areas.

The westernization process usually gets substantially stronger in the 2nd generation, but it's this generation that sometimes gets torn between the old and new ways. IOW, Mom & Dad and their traditions tells them one thing but western society tells them something different, and this frustration can sometimes lead to violent behavior.

However, here in the States it is easier for Muslims to mix in versus what we see in Europe, and they eventually pretty much do.

 

[shunyadragon]

Because not all atheists are anti-theists. When an atheist seems anti-theist, that is probably because they are strong atheists who are also anti-theists.

It is interesting in my experience with the Jewish community (Lots of time and friends playing chess at the Jewish Center) I have found some atheist and Agnostic Jews getting along very well with the more traditional Theist Jews.

 

[Desert Snake]

Many atheists become atheists from hating being told what to believe. Unfortunately they're the loudest bunch.

I just decided one day that God didn't exist because I was doing everything I was told a good person does, and praying, and things got worse for me very quickly. That's more like "I guess it's not that way" while most atheists come from "stop telling me God exists, mom."

I think I was just always quiet about my stance on God so most people think I'm a Christian who doesn't go to church or something. I never really felt like belief was forced upon me, that people just assumed. The anti-theists usually are projecting what others projected onto them by reversing it. (It's not true with all anti-theists, but from my experience it seems to be the case more often than not).

Personally I see benifits and downfalls with both hard atheism and hard theism. So I'm soft on both issues.

My rl conversations with atheists aren't the same as online. Still some Bible criticism, etc, though. Now, I also know those atheists personally, so it's different.

 

[Desert Snake]

Because when they get angry at you, you feel like they're getting angry at God?

I'm not familiar with that concept.

 

[Desert Snake]

Many of the most irrationally vicious anti-theists I have ever heard are religionists.
The things Christians say about pagans, or Muslims say about Jews, or whatever like that, are often as not more ignorant and cruel than anything Dawkins or The New Atheists or I would ever say.(out loud, much less on the internet)
The worst anti-theists are religious people who hate other religions.
Tom

Do you you think that sort of thread is a good idea?

 

[ChristineM]

Atheism is a religion...

"Religious minority"

Atheism is religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

At the risk of going off topic.

Can I ask if the respected Muslims are living in the Islamic community or are they more integrated into western society?

We will have to agree to disagree about Quaranists.

Thanks.

Integrated, but to be fair, these are anecdotal examples, and I don't mix with the Islamic community per se.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Atheism is a religion...

"Religious minority"

Pure piffle! "Atheism is a religion" is exactly like saying "not collecting stamps is a hobby."

 

[Desert Snake]

From: Atheists remain most disliked religious minority in the U.S.

^
Thats what I was quoting

Pure piffle! "Atheism is a religion" is exactly like saying "not collecting stamps is a hobby."

How do you define religion?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

^
Thats what I was quoting



How do you define religion?

From Latin, "religare," to bind oneself. You figure the rest out.

 

[shunyadragon]

^
Thats what I was quoting

Your quote was incomplete.

How do you define religion?

Legal decision determining atheism is considered a religion by law.

↑
Atheism is religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

From: Court rules atheism a religion

"A federal court of appeals ruled yesterday Wisconsin prison officials violated an inmate’s rights because they did not treat atheism as a religion.

Atheism is [the inmate’s] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being,” the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said.

The court decided the inmate’s First Amendment rights were violated because the prison refused to allow him to create a study group for atheists.

Brian Fahling, senior trial attorney for the American Family Association Center for Law & Policy, called the court’s ruling “a sort of Alice in Wonderland jurisprudence.”

“Up is down, and atheism, the antithesis of religion, is religion,” said Fahling.

The Supreme Court has said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described “secular humanism” as a religion.

Fahling said today’s ruling was “further evidence of the incoherence of Establishment Clause jurisprudence.”

“It is difficult not to be somewhat jaundiced about our courts when they take clauses especially designed to protect religion from the state and turn them on their head by giving protective cover to a belief system, that, by every known definition other than the courts’ is not a religion, while simultaneously declaring public expressions of true religious faith to be prohibited,” Fahling said."

I go with the broad definition as 'belief system' with defined beliefs in the existence nor non-existence of other worlds. A religion is not necessarily organized, but the Unitarian Universalist Church is an organized religion that includes the humanist beliefs of atheism and agnosticism.

 

[Nakosis]

I believe you are describing Agnosticism in bold. Atheists by definition do not believe God(s) exist.

I lack a belief that that any Gods exist. That doesn't mean I have a belief that no Gods exist. I lack the belief in a Christian God that some folks have for example. I lack theism.

Agnosticism refers to a lack of knowledge about God, which IMO is everyone on the planet. Sure I know folks claim otherwise, I just don't happen to believe them. So a person can say I'm agnostic but I'm likely to throw it right back at them.

 

[Nakosis]

From: Court rules atheism a religion

"A federal court of appeals ruled yesterday Wisconsin prison officials violated an inmate’s rights because they did not treat atheism as a religion.

Atheism is [the inmate’s] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being,” the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said.

The court decided the inmate’s First Amendment rights were violated because the prison refused to allow him to create a study group for atheists.

Brian Fahling, senior trial attorney for the American Family Association Center for Law & Policy, called the court’s ruling “a sort of Alice in Wonderland jurisprudence.”

“Up is down, and atheism, the antithesis of religion, is religion,” said Fahling.

The Supreme Court has said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described “secular humanism” as a religion.

Fahling said today’s ruling was “further evidence of the incoherence of Establishment Clause jurisprudence.”

“It is difficult not to be somewhat jaundiced about our courts when they take clauses especially designed to protect religion from the state and turn them on their head by giving protective cover to a belief system, that, by every known definition other than the courts’ is not a religion, while simultaneously declaring public expressions of true religious faith to be prohibited,” Fahling said."

I go with the broad definition as 'belief system' with defined beliefs in the existence nor non-existence of other worlds. A religion is not necessarily organized, but the Unitarian Universalist Church is an organized religion that includes the humanist beliefs of atheism and agnosticism.

Fahling is correct and the court is wrong. It happens.

 

[Desert Snake]

Pure piffle! "Atheism is a religion" is exactly like saying "not collecting stamps is a hobby."

^

You figure the rest out.

So nothing but a random outburst.

 

[shunyadragon]

Fahling is correct and the court is wrong. It happens.

It remains the legal definition of religion, and in the broader definition of religion as in the reference I previously cited defining Atheism as religious minority. It really does not change anything regardless of what you call it. Atheists remain the most hated, disliked, not trusted minority in America,

What 'Ain't necessarily so' said: 'One only need not assume that it does [exist].' is a more compatible statement of agnostic belief.

From: agnosticism definition - Google Search
Agnosticism - a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.