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Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

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Polaris

Active Member
Well, without reading any of the (1??) or so threads, and hoping I don't repeat someone else. Here is one quicky -------
Malachi 3 in the "book of mormon" is the King James text! Whoever wrote the "book of mormon" (far from writing it at the time of the American Indians 2000 B.C.-1000 A.D.) waited until 1611 to hack off those golden plates.......

There are also several chapters that match word for word passages from Isaiah. It is important to point out that Joseph didn't receive a word-for-word verbatim translation. The inspired translation consisted of a flowing of information in a more conceptual manner. For the most part the exact wording was left to Joseph (hence the KJV-like language). It makes perfect sense to believe that he may very well have used his KJV Bible to serve as a reference for certain passages that contained quotes from OT scripture. In the cases where the KJV text provided an accurate representation it was likely used as is.
 

Polaris

Active Member
Does it say any where in the book of Mormon that the words are inspired by God?
Peace>>>AJ

It does in many passages. Here's just one of the many:

"(10) And now, my beloved brethren ... hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good. (11) And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness." (2 Nephi 33:10-11)
 

SoyLeche

meh...
There are also several chapters that match word for word passages from Isaiah. It is important to point out that Joseph didn't receive a word-for-word verbatim translation. The inspired translation consisted of a flowing of information in a more conceptual manner. For the most part the exact wording was left to Joseph (hence the KJV-like language). It makes perfect sense to believe that he may very well have used his KJV Bible to serve as a reference for certain passages that contained quotes from OT scripture. In the cases where the KJV text provided an accurate representation it was likely used as is.
The Malachi chapters were written by Malachi after Lehi had already left. When Christ tells the Nephites what Malachi says he makes a point of telling them that there had been some things written that he wanted them to know. I would suppose that Christ would have been able to quote them exactly as they were written.

You are most likely correct about their translation into English.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
The Malachi chapters were written by Malachi after Lehi had already left. When Christ tells the Nephites what Malachi says he makes a point of telling them that there had been some things written that he wanted them to know. I would suppose that Christ would have been able to quote them exactly as they were written.

You are most likely correct about their translation into English.
The only one that really confused me for a while was when Moroni seemed to be quoting Paul - until I realized (read somewhere :) )that it was possible that they were both quoting an earlier source.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
I hate to bug everyone, but my posts are getting buried.

Chiasmus? Anyone?
Other then say that it is an amazing piece of work that I am planning on looking at in detail when I find the time - I don't have much to say about it :)

Could you provide the verses?
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
I am going to quote a talk given by Jeffery R. Holland in 1995 Regarding the Authenticity of the Book of Mormon.
A good deal has been said about the authorship—therefore, the divine origins—of the Book of Mormon. But then there has always been a lot said about it ever since it first rolled off the old E. B. Grandin press in downtown Palmyra, New York, on 26 March 1830.

Let me quote a very powerful comment from President Ezra Taft Benson: “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of [our] testimony. Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The enemies of the Church understand this clearly. This is why they go to such great lengths to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, for if it can be discredited, the Prophet Joseph Smith goes with it. So does our claim to priesthood keys, and revelation, and the restored Church. But in like manner, if the Book of Mormon be true—and millions have now testified that they have the witness of the Spirit that it is indeed true—then one must accept the claims of the Restoration and all that accompanies it.

“Yes, the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion—the keystone of our testimony, the keystone of our doctrine, and the keystone in the witness of our Lord and Savior” (A Witness and a Warning, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1988, page 19).

To hear someone so remarkable say something so tremendously bold, so overwhelming in its implications, that everything in the Church—everything—rises or falls on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and, by implication, the Prophet Joseph Smith’s account of how it came forth, can be a little breathtaking. It sounds like a “sudden death” proposition to me. Either the Book of Mormon is what the Prophet Joseph said it is or this Church and its founder are false, fraudulent, a deception from the first instance onward.

Not everything in life is so black and white, but it seems the authenticity of the Book of Mormon and its keystone role in our belief is exactly that. Either Joseph Smith was the prophet he said he was, who, after seeing the Father and the Son, later beheld the angel Moroni, repeatedly heard counsel from his lips, eventually receiving at his hands a set of ancient gold plates which he then translated according to the gift and power of God—or else he did not. And if he did not, in the spirit of President Benson’s comment, he is not entitled to retain even the reputation of New England folk hero or well-meaning young man or writer of remarkable fiction. No, and he is not entitled to be considered a great teacher or a quintessential American prophet or the creator of great wisdom literature. If he lied about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, he is certainly none of those.

I feel about this as C. S. Lewis once said about the divinity of Christ: “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: [that is,] ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to” (Mere Christianity, New York: The Macmillan Company, 1960, pages 40–41).

I am suggesting that we make exactly that same kind of do-or-die, bold assertion about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the divine origins of the Book of Mormon. We have to. Reason and rightness require it. Accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and the book as the miraculously revealed and revered word of the Lord it is, or else consign both man and book to Hades for the devastating deception of it all. But let’s not have any bizarre middle ground about the wonderful contours of a young boy’s imagination or his remarkable facility for turning a literary phrase. That is an unacceptable position to take—morally, literarily, historically, or theologically.

As the word of God has always been—and I testify again that is purely and simply and precisely what the Book of Mormon is—this record is “quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow” (D&C 6:2). The Book of Mormon is that quick and that powerful for us. And it certainly is that sharp. Nothing in our history and nothing in our message cuts to the chase faster than our uncompromising declaration that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. On this issue we draw a line in the sand.

May I make it very clear where I stand regarding Joseph Smith, a stance taken because of the Book of Mormon. I testify out of the certainty of my soul that Joseph Smith entertained an angel and received at his hand an ancient set of gold plates. I testify of that as surely as if I had, with the three witnesses, seen the angel Moroni or, with the three and the eight witnesses, seen and handled the plates.

It was the Book of Mormon that changed my life, told me the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored, and immersed me in the Church, heart and soul. I hold it in a category sacred to me among all the world’s literature. It stands preeminent in my intellectual and spiritual life, the classic of all classics, a reaffirmation of the Holy Bible, a voice from the dust, a witness for Christ, the word of the Lord unto salvation.

he is right, you cannot say "Joe smith was a good fiction writer" or "an inspiring religious author." It is either true, or it isn't there is no middle ground.

This talk is amazing and inspiring to me. The Book of Mormon, authenticates the bible, the Bible also indeed Authenticates the Book of Mormon.

How could a young man, a simple farm boy with little education, produce a book that coincides perfectly, without flaw, to the bible, reinforces it, and vice-versa? Especially in such a short time from the beginning of the transcriptions april 1829 to the first publication in March 1830.

also how in the Book of Isaiah prophesies exactly how the Book of Mormon came to be? that is co-incides exactly how the Book of Mormon came from out of the ground.
Isaiah is speaking about the Decendants of Jacob and Joseph (Nephites)
Isaiah 29:
4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.

Isaiah 29:11-19
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

17 Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?

18 ¶ And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

People dedicate thier whole lives and all thier extra time to trying to "prove the Book of Mormon false" yet, they cannot, it stands unwavering in the midst of attacks from all angles as they try to disprove it, but they cannot. it seems to me that 180 years of trying to prove a book wrong would do it, but they cannot. Why is it so hard? why is it impossible? There is no other book in the world with a promise that if you ask in prayer to God that he will manifest the truthfulness of it unto you.
 

Melissa G

Non Veritas Verba Amanda
That's just nonsense. Smith wasn't such an uneducated person as is made out. but lets consider these magical golden plates which just as magically disappeared. Originally, he had a supposed three witnesses. But then he later added another eight. Now Thomas Ford, Governer of Illinois wrote about how Smith obtained the signatures of the Eight. Having assembled them in a room, Smith produced a box in which he said were contained the plates. When the lid was opened, the box was empty (hehe). It was said to Smith, by the Eight that they could see no plates, to which Smith replied. ' Oh yea of little faith ect ect( heard that somewhere before) !, Smith preceeded to berate them for being wicked. After two hours of prayers on their knees, they were persuaded they could see the plates. Reminds me of the Emperor's new clothes. I have no doubt that the whole Mormon Church is based on fakery.

History of Illinois ( Chicago,1854) p,257.

Melissa G
 

SoyLeche

meh...
That's just nonsense. Smith wasn't such an uneducated person as is made out. but lets consider these magical golden plates which just as magically disappeared. Originally, he had a supposed three witnesses. But then he later added another eight. Now Thomas Ford, Governer of Illinois wrote about how Smith obtained the signatures of the Eight. Having assembled them in a room, Smith produced a box in which he said were contained the plates. When the lid was opened, the box was empty (hehe). It was said to Smith, by the Eight that they could see no plates, to which Smith replied. ' Oh yea of little faith ect ect( heard that somewhere before) !, Smith preceeded to berate them for being wicked. After two hours of prayers on their knees, they were persuaded they could see the plates. Reminds me of the Emperor's new clothes. I have no doubt that the whole Mormon Church is based on fakery.

History of Illinois ( Chicago,1854) p,257.

Melissa G
Yeah, Governor Ford was present and is a very credible witness. Much more credible then the people involved :rolleyes:

Ford had to placate a citizenry that just expelled the Mormons from their state - he couldn't have had any type of agenda in what he wrote.
 

Polaris

Active Member
That's just nonsense. Smith wasn't such an uneducated person as is made out.

While he was definitely extremely intelligent, he was uneducated. You do know the difference right?

but lets consider these magical golden plates which just as magically disappeared.

Magically disappeared? You're losing credibility by the moment. The plates were given to angel Moroni after the translation was complete. There purpose on earth was fulfilled.

Now Thomas Ford, Governer of Illinois wrote about how Smith obtained the signatures of the Eight. Having assembled them in a room, Smith produced a box in which he said were contained the plates. When the lid was opened, the box was empty (hehe). It was said to Smith, by the Eight that they could see no plates, to which Smith replied. ' Oh yea of little faith ect ect( heard that somewhere before) !, Smith preceeded to berate them for being wicked. After two hours of prayers on their knees, they were persuaded they could see the plates.

Please inform us as to how Governer Ford was so intimately acquainted with the 8 witnesses and the event that transpired with them.

Reminds me of the Emperor's new clothes. I have no doubt that the whole Mormon Church is based on fakery.

Good for you. You can tell that to Joseph yourself when you see him on the other side.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
Everybody has a agenda, even Mr Smith.
You realize that almost every single one of the witnesses at one point or another had major issues with Smith. A couple of them ended up hating him - and yet they never recanted what they saw.

But I guess Governor Ford is still the more credible source.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
Going after the witnesses is another dead end for you.

You seem to like attacking the positions that are easiest to defend...
 

Polaris

Active Member
Now Thomas Ford, Governer of Illinois wrote about how Smith obtained the signatures of the Eight. Having assembled them in a room, Smith produced a box in which he said were contained the plates. When the lid was opened, the box was empty (hehe). It was said to Smith, by the Eight that they could see no plates, to which Smith replied. ' Oh yea of little faith ect ect( heard that somewhere before) !, Smith preceeded to berate them for being wicked. After two hours of prayers on their knees, they were persuaded they could see the plates.

I'm sorry I couldn't help but come back to this ridiculous attack by Melissa. It's a perfect example of clueless, unsubstantiateable, anti-mormon filth.

Governer Ford was governer of Illinois. The Mormons didn't arrive in Illinois until the early 1840's. The 8 witnesses were shown the gold plates in 1829 in upstate New York. So please inform us Melissa how Governer Ford could possibly have had any clue as to what happened when the eight witnesses where shown the plates.

Absolutely ridiculous.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Smith wasn't such an uneducated person as is made out.
Really? Why don't you help us out here, Melissa. Tell us about Joseph Smith's education, particularly his education prior to 1829.

...but lets consider these magical golden plates which just as magically disappeared.
Yes, let's. How about we start by your explaining your reference to the plates as "magic." This would be helpful to us, since I'm sure none of us had any idea there was anything magic about them.

Originally, he had a supposed three witnesses. But then he later added another eight.
And this is a problem because?

Now Thomas Ford, Governer of Illinois wrote about how Smith obtained the signatures of the Eight. Having assembled them in a room, Smith produced a box in which he said were contained the plates. When the lid was opened, the box was empty (hehe). It was said to Smith, by the Eight that they could see no plates, to which Smith replied. ' Oh yea of little faith ect ect( heard that somewhere before) !, Smith preceeded to berate them for being wicked. After two hours of prayers on their knees, they were persuaded they could see the plates.
Considering the fact that Thomas Ford lived 800 miles from where the eight witnesses claimed to have seen the plates and that this event took place some 25 years prior to his writing the "History of Illinois," one can't help but wonder why you put such stock in what he has to say.

Reminds me of the Emperor's new clothes. I have no doubt that the whole Mormon Church is based on fakery.
And your attempt to discredit the LDS Church reminds me of the big bad wolf and the story of the "Three Little Pigs." Let's see... How'd that go? "And I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house down!" :D
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Everybody has a agenda, even Mr Smith.

And his only Agenda was to help bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.


If it was for power, why is the same priesthood power the apostles have, bestowed upon every worthy man to help bless his family and those he is in service to?

If it was for Money, why did he never take any for himself? why is there no beneficiary to the LDS Church's enormous wealth?

If it was a means to control the masses, why do we encourage gaining as much secular and spiritual education as possible and making decisions for ourselves? seems to me the most effective way control the masses is to keep them as stupid as possible. Every bit of scripture and revelation is available to the entire world, we do not keep a single portion of it "for the initiated" or those "in power" or any such nonsense.

Agenda? the only agenda here is to allow people to know God personally.
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The bible says: Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Division is the order of things that by dividing there may be discernment between night and day, between signs and seasons, days and years.

Do not all belong to one God?

Then mankind comes into the picture and demands what everybody else wants: Luk 12:13 And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.

All our religious differences are divisions of which we are all looking at the same God, yet each one of us are claiming the inheritance as ours.

That might not be quite the verses that clear depict what I want to say but close.

A mature believer I believe is one that will accept the differences amongst ourselves with the love of the same God we are all claiming to have, and allow everyone to be who they are without drawing any lines in the sand.

I used to argue with Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh day Adventist, and others in trying to tell them that if they didn’t accept Jesus as their Savior like I did were all going to hell.

What a mentality that was. Of course, I was immature and still in 101 class in learning.

Since, I ‘ve learned allot and now I still believe just as strong in my Savior Jesus, but am open to all souls being loved by God and to allow them to practice their own beliefs and still love them, have fellowship with them.

The whole point of division I think is to unite the whole as one body and the glue that binds them all together is love.

Peace>>>AJ
 

Polaris

Active Member
look3467 said:
I used to argue with Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh day Adventist, and others in trying to tell them that if they didn't accept Jesus as their Savior like I did were all going to hell.

I'm glad to hear you've quit arguing with Mormons about this, because we do accept Jesus as our Savior.

Since, I've learned allot and now I still believe just as strong in my Savior Jesus, but am open to all souls being loved by God and to allow them to practice their own beliefs and still love them, have fellowship with them.
Then you have my utmost respect.
 

Melissa G

Non Veritas Verba Amanda
While he was definitely extremely intelligent, he was uneducated. You do know the difference right?

Don't be stupid, I'm unversity educated....



Magically disappeared? You're losing credibility by the moment. The plates were given to angel Moroni after the translation was complete. There purpose on earth was fulfilled.

Hearsay....



Please inform us as to how Governer Ford was so intimately acquainted with the 8 witnesses and the event that transpired with them.

I quote my sources, I don't need to Justify them....



Good for you. You can tell that to Joseph yourself when you see him on the other side.

:) I wouldn't bank on that Polaris...

Melissa G
 
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