Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

[DeepShadow]

Yes, but if the doctrine was hidden from the Nephites and from the first generation of Latter Day Saints, yet is casually mentioned in certain pamphlets left in the homes of Gentiles by modern LDS missionaries, one might disregard that doctrine as one of the plain and precious things removed from the Gospel of the Lamb which justified a Restoration.

Logical fallacy: just because something wasn't revealed in the Bible doesn't mean it was removed. It may not have been revealed yet.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Hey, kadzbiz and DreGod07...

I just noticed that the two of you are posting in the Same-Faith-Debates forum. It really don't matter to me, but you may not have noticed that this is what you're doing. Since it's possible that someone will complain, you might want to reconsider before you post again.

oopsie.....:sorry1:

I didn't realize that's where I was.......No problem.....

Maybe we can request a MOD or Admin...?..... To move it to the proper location?????

 

[DeepShadow]

Why not just start a separate thread about the movies?

 

[kadzbiz]

Hey, kadzbiz and DreGod07...

I just noticed that the two of you are posting in the Same-Faith-Debates forum. It really don't matter to me, but you may not have noticed that this is what you're doing. Since it's possible that someone will complain, you might want to reconsider before you post again.

D'oh! I'm outta here...................apologies.:sorry1:

 

[DeepShadow]

Okay, I've just started a thread for discussion and debate of the DNA film.

 

[sojourner]

Logical fallacy: just because something wasn't revealed in the Bible doesn't mean it was removed. It may not have been revealed yet.

This is still being argued? Christians closed the Canon centuries ago. WE believe that the Bible contains all things necessary to salvation. Just because a certain group wandered along and decided to open it again, doesn't mean that the majority of the Body of Christ has to accept that stance. It's really that simple: We don't believe you.

My particular branch of Xy accepts you all as part of the Church, but we can do that without buying into your particular take on revealed scripture. We don't believe that the Pope has supreme ecclesiastical authority, either, yet we include the Roman Catholics as part of the Church.

I guess I don't see what the big problem is here. We simply don't believe you. So what?

 

[nutshell]

This is still being argued? Christians closed the Canon centuries ago. WE believe that the Bible contains all things necessary to salvation. Just because a certain group wandered along and decided to open it again, doesn't mean that the majority of the Body of Christ has to accept that stance. It's really that simple: We don't believe you.

My particular branch of Xy accepts you all as part of the Church, but we can do that without buying into your particular take on revealed scripture. We don't believe that the Pope has supreme ecclesiastical authority, either, yet we include the Roman Catholics as part of the Church.

I guess I don't see what the big problem is here. We simply don't believe you. So what?

Strawman.

DeepShawdow was asked a specific question about the Book of Mormon and he answered this. Your comments are irrelevant to that discussion.

 

[Katzpur]

This is still being argued? Christians closed the Canon centuries ago.

That goes without saying, but who told them to?

WE believe that the Bible contains all things necessary to salvation. Just because a certain group wandered along and decided to open it again, doesn't mean that the majority of the Body of Christ has to accept that stance. It's really that simple: We don't believe you.

In a way, that's a very good answer; in a way, it's no good at all. First of all, sojourner, considering that you are a universalist, it would follow that the Bible and what's taught in it aren't necessary at all. If every human being who has ever lived is going to be saved regardless of what they say, do or believe, the Bible offers some good advice for those who are interested, but that's about all. Second, your statement about "a certain group [who] wandered along and decided to open [the canon] again," is a pretty weak argument. If one group of Christians closed the canon without God's approval, another has ever right to re-open it without God's approval. On the other hand, If God did not approve the first action, He can start talking again any time He's so inclined. You should have just stuck with, "The majority of the Bobdy of Christ simply doesn't believe you." That's the only thing you said that really made any sense.

I guess I don't see what the big problem is here. We simply don't believe you. So what?

So nothing. I'm fine with that.

 

[reformed christian]

The Book of Mormon contrdicts Mormon Doctrine itself.
For example.

Mormon Doctrine teaches that there are many Gods

However the Book of Mormon refutes that idea:
Alma 11: 44 "...Christ the Son, and God the Father and the Holy Spirit which is one Eternal God..."

2 Nephi 31: 21 "... which is one God..."

Cover pages under 'Testimony of Three Witnesses (last sentence): "... which is one God..."

Ether 2: 8 The Lord is the "true and only God..."

Mormon doctrine also teaches that Jesus became a God
However, the Book of Mormon refutes that idea:
Mosiah 15: 1-4 "God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people."
Mosiah 3: 5 "the Lord Omnipotent, who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity ...."
Mosiah 7: 27 "...Christ was the God... (who) came down ... to take upon him flesh and blood..."
Mosiah 13: 34 "God himself should come down... and take upon him the form of man ...."
2 Nephi 11: 7 "But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh..."
2 Nephi 19: 6 "For unto us a child is born,... his name shall be called... The Mighty God, ...."
2 Nephi 26: 12 Jew and Gentile must be convinced that "Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God..."
1 Nephi 10: 18 The Son of God "... is the same yesterday, today and forever;"
3 Nephi 10: 18 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end."

Mormon doctrine also teaches that God was not always God
Book of Mormon refutes that idea:
Mosiah 3: 5 "the Lord Omnipotent... was, and is from all eternity to all eternity..."
Moroni 8: 18 "God is... unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity."
Moroni 7: 22 "God (is) from everlasting to everlasting..."
2 Nephi 27: 23 "I am the same yesterday, today, and forever;"
Mormon 9: 9 "For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?"
Mormon 9: 19 "I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God;"

These are only a few examples of where the Book of Mormon is not even consitent with Mormon doctrine.

By the way, most Christians I know don't believe that Mary appeared to 6 old women in Bosnia.

 

[DeepShadow]

Mormon Doctrine teaches that there are many Gods

Mormon doctrine also teaches that Jesus became a God

Mormon doctrine also teaches that God was not always God

Show me where these things are taught in Mormon doctrine, and you'll be set up to say that the Book of Mormon contradicts Mormon doctrine.

Here's a hint: Mormon doctrine is found in the Standard Works and official proclamations. Find it in those.

 

[reformed christian]

I will show you where these things are taught in Mormon doctrine, but first let me ask you...

Do you personally believe there are many Gods?

Do you personally believe that Jesus became a God?

Do you personally believe that God was not always God?

 

[DeepShadow]

I will show you where these things are taught in Mormon doctrine, but first let me ask you...

Do you personally believe there are many Gods?

Do you personally believe that Jesus became a God?

Do you personally believe that God was not always God?

Short answer: No, I don't.

Longer: I leave that kind of speculation to others. I've heard plenty of ideas, some of them sound feasible, some sound stupid, but they are still just speculation. When there's an official proclamation on any of these, I'll consult with God myself. Until then, I neither believe nor reject any of these.

 

[reformed christian]

Would you consider the following writings Standard Works and official proclamations?

• Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith
• Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie
• Gospel Principles
• Achieving a Celestial Marriage - published by the LDS Church in 1992

 

[Bishka]

Would you consider the following writings Standard Works and official proclamations?

• Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith
• Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie
• Gospel Principles
• Achieving a Celestial Marriage - published by the LDS Church in 1992

This is official doctrine:

Scriptures

This is a statement by the LDS Church found here

SALT LAKE CITY 4 May 2007 Much misunderstanding about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints revolves around its doctrine. The news media is increasingly asking what distinguishes the Church from other faiths, and reporters like to contrast one set of beliefs with another.

The Church welcomes inquisitiveness, but the challenge of understanding Mormon doctrine is not merely a matter of accessing the abundant information available. Rather, it is a matter of how this information is approached and examined.

The doctrinal tenets of any religion are best understood within a broad context , and thoughtful analysis is required to understand them. News reporters pressed by daily deadlines often find that problematic. Therefore, as the Church continues to grow throughout the world and receive increasing media attention, a few simple principles that facilitate a better understanding may be helpful:

* Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
* Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.

Based on the scriptures, Joseph Smith declared: “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”

* Because different times present different challenges, modern-day prophets receive revelation relevant to the circumstances of their day. This follows the biblical pattern (Amos 3:7), in which God communicated messages and warnings to His people through prophets in order to secure their well-being. In our day, President Gordon B. Hinckley has repeatedly emphasized the importance of the family in our increasingly fractional society. In addition, the Church does not preclude future additions or changes to its teachings or practices. This living, dynamic aspect of the Church provides flexibility in meeting those challenges. According to the Articles of Faith, “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.”
* Latter-day Saints place heavy emphasis on the application of their faith in daily life. For example, the active participation of Latter-day Saints in their community and worldwide humanitarian programs reflects concern for other people. As Jesus Christ declared, “By their fruits ye shall know them.”
* Individual members are encouraged to independently strive to receive their own spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of Church doctrine. Moreover, the Church exhorts all people to approach the gospel not only intellectually but with the intellect and the spirit, a process in which reason and faith work together.
* Those writing or commenting on Latter-day Saint doctrine also need to understand that certain words in the Mormon vocabulary have slightly different meanings and connotations than those same words have in other religions. For example, Latter-day Saints generally view being born again as a process of conversion, whereas many other Christian denominations often view it as a conversion that happens in one defining moment. Sometimes what some may consider an argument or dispute over doctrine is really a misunderstanding of simple differences in terminology.

Journalists, academics and laymen alike are encouraged to pursue their inquiries into the Church by recognizing the broad and complex context within which its doctrines have been declared, in a spirit of reason and good will.

Ready to move on?

 

[Bishka]

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph SmithWould you consider the following writings Standard Works and official proclamations?

Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie

No

Gospel Principles

Elaborates a bit on doctrine but not official doctrine.

Achieving a Celestial Marriage - published by the LDS Church in 1992

Elaborates a bit on doctrine but not official doctrine.

 

[DeepShadow]

Would you consider the following writings Standard Works and official proclamations?

• Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith
• Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie
• Gospel Principles
• Achieving a Celestial Marriage - published by the LDS Church in 1992

Bishka beat me to it, but since you were partly addressing me, I'll repeat it: the Standard Works are the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants. Two Official Proclamations are bound with the Doctrine and Covenants. The Proclamation on the Family and the Living Christ proclamation are still separate, but may yet be bound with the others.

 

[reformed christian]

You asked me to show you where these things are taught in Mormon doctrine. Here are my references: I understand that you don't consider all that I reference as "offical" doctrine, however it is taught within the ranks of Mormonism.

Mormon Doctrine teaches that there are many Gods:
The Mormon Church teaches that there are many Gods (Book of Abraham 4:3ff), and that we can become gods and goddesses in the celestial kingdom (Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20; Gospel Principles, p. 245; Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p. 130). It also teaches that those who achieve godhood will have spirit children who will worship and pray to them, just as we worship and pray to God the Father (Gospel Principles, p. 302).

Mormon doctrine also teaches that Jesus became a God:
The Mormon Church teaches that Jesus Christ is our elder brother who progressed to godhood, having first been procreated as a spirit child by Heavenly Father and a heavenly mother; He was later conceived physically through intercourse between Heavenly Father and the virgin Mary (Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p. 129; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 546-547; 742). Mormon doctrine affirms that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers (Gospel Principles, pp. 17-18; Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).

Mormon doctrine also teaches that God was not always God:
The Mormon Church teaches that God the Father was once a man like us who progressed to become a God and has a body of flesh and bone (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22; "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-347; Gospel Principles, p. 9; Articles of Faith, p. 430; Mormon Doctrine, p. 321). Indeed, the Mormon Church teaches that God himself has a father, and a grandfather, ad infinitum (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373; Mormon Doctrine, p. 577).

 

[Francine]

You asked me to show you where these things are taught in Mormon doctrine. Here are my references: I understand that you don't consider all that I reference as "offical" doctrine, however it is taught within the ranks of Mormonism.

I already suggested "Mormon Doctrine" was Mormon doctrine, they say it ain't. And the Book of Abraham ain't on their list neither.

 

[Bishka]

however it is taught within the ranks of Mormonism.

Stop plagiarizing CARM.

Then, if the best you have is CARM.......

 

[Katzpur]

The Book of Mormon contrdicts Mormon Doctrine itself.

Thank you for your insight into this subject. By the way, do you have any idea what actually constitutes "Mormon doctrine"? :no:

Right. I didn't think so.

By the way, most Christians I know don't believe that Mary appeared to 6 old women in Bosnia.

That's a relief. Most Christians I know don't believe that either! See, we already have something in common!