• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I actually asked this of a missionary pair I was taking the lessons with and they had this as an rationale: In 3 Nephi chapter 8 it tells of "tempests, earthquakes, fires, whirlwinds and physical upheavals attest the crucifixion of Christ - many people are destroyed..."Therefore the cities were destroyed and there were no artifacts to be discovered later. convenient, huh?
Convenient for our critics, yes.

On the other hand, non-LDS scholar, Payson Sheets, has studied voth volcanic and seismic activity in the part of the world most commonly believed to be where most of the events in the Book of Mormon are said to have taken place (i.e. Mesoamerica) and has determined that there were major lava flows in that area dating from what he has said to be "about the time of Christ"), making the Book of Mormon account entirely plausible. Some of these did, in fact, bury Mesoamerican cities (such as the city at Cuicuilco in the Valley of Mexico).
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
I find this bizarre. If they had true witness of the plates and understood that the Book of Mormon was indeed Scripture - how can they part ways with the prophet who gave it to them?

Because they knew that prophets--true prophets--can fall. Thus when they had their falling out with Joseph, it was easy to conclude that he was a fallen prophet. This would not affect their testimonies of the Book of Mormon, and it didn't. During their periods away from the church, Oliver Cowdery insisted that his testimony of the Book of Mormon be recorded in a court of law, and David Whitmer had it put on his tombstone.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
I actually asked this of a missionary pair I was taking the lessons with and they had this as an rationale: In 3 Nephi chapter 8 it tells of "tempests, earthquakes, fires, whirlwinds and physical upheavals attest the crucifixion of Christ - many people are destroyed..."Therefore the cities were destroyed and there were no artifacts to be discovered later. convenient, huh?

...why were you asking scholarly archaeological questions of a couple of guys without degrees in anything, let alone archaeology? The answer you got is exactly what you should expect to get--a layperson's answer.

On the topic of the gospel, they are authorized teachers, but archaeology is not the gospel, and on that topic, they were laypeople. You might as well have asked Heloise.:shrug:
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I actually asked this of a missionary pair I was taking the lessons with and they had this as an rationale: In 3 Nephi chapter 8 it tells of "tempests, earthquakes, fires, whirlwinds and physical upheavals attest the crucifixion of Christ - many people are destroyed..."Therefore the cities were destroyed and there were no artifacts to be discovered later. convenient, huh?

Ok.....here's the thing....from what I know of the events...I find them suspect as well. For me, and I can only speak for me, I find that there is no motivation on the part of mormons to dig at the cite where this massive battle was to take place. (IMO)

Maybe they feel as though the place is too sacred to dig or maybe they feel as though they won't find anything and it will be too expensive of an embarrassment. I don't know. Given the size of the mormon church and the wealth I don't think money will be an issue.

As far as what Katzpur said about mesomerica....I'm going to have to do more research. It is interesting to note that a lot of the mormon pictures depict myan temples in the background so she may be on to something but I thought I read something to the effect of some of those civilizations starting after the claims of the BoM. I thought I also read that they were not involved in making items out of metal or using coinage. Again, this is why I have to do some research on my own........
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Ok.....here's the thing....from what I know of the events...I find them suspect as well. For me, and I can only speak for me, I find that there is no motivation on the part of mormons to dig at the cite where this massive battle was to take place. (IMO)

Maybe they feel as though the place is too sacred to dig or maybe they feel as though they won't find anything and it will be too expensive of an embarrassment. I don't know. Given the size of the mormon church and the wealth I don't think money will be an issue.
You're operating under the premise that all of this should matter. You know as well as I do that if some kind of artifacts were discovered at the Hill Cumorah, the only ones who would accept the findings as valid evidence would be those who already believe. Everybody else would try to find reasons why it wasn't legitimate proof of anything. The most significant artifact that could possibly be discovered in the area was unearthed in 1830 and was published as a book of sacred scripture that is summarily dismissed as a fraud by pretty much everybody but 13 million people worldwide. We have no desire to gain converts who need to find a sword inscribed with Moroni's name on it in order to believe. That's what the skeptics just don't seem to get.

As far as what Katzpur said about mesomerica....I'm going to have to do more research. It is interesting to note that a lot of the mormon pictures depict myan temples in the background so she may be on to something but I thought I read something to the effect of some of those civilizations starting after the claims of the BoM. I thought I also read that they were not involved in making items out of metal or using coinage. Again, this is why I have to do some research on my own........
May I suggest Book of Mormon Evidences.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
Ok.....here's the thing....from what I know of the events...I find them suspect as well. For me, and I can only speak for me, I find that there is no motivation on the part of mormons to dig at the cite where this massive battle was to take place. (IMO)

I can only assume you mean the Hill Cumorah in New York--synonymous to the laypeople with the Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon. Problem is, we're pretty sure the laypeople are wrong. A careful reading of the Book of Mormon reveals that the site where the Gold Plates were buried was not the site of the great battle, nor was it ever intended to be called Cumorah. The current name among LDS is the result of a misreading.

Thus, there would be nothing to find inside the "Hill Cumorah" in upstate New York, because that's not the one mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
...why were you asking scholarly archaeological questions of a couple of guys without degrees in anything, let alone archaeology? The answer you got is exactly what you should expect to get--a layperson's answer.

On the topic of the gospel, they are authorized teachers, but archaeology is not the gospel, and on that topic, they were laypeople. You might as well have asked Heloise.:shrug:

Well wouldn't they have at least read it from their scholars, taught it in school/college etc?

I find it reasonable to believe that something is there where this massive battle took place. Thousands of people fighting....temples and cities etc....

I remember on Discovery or TLC that archaeologist had found a city buried under tons of volcanic ash. Here it is thousands of years later and archeologist are still digging and finding stuff in Jerusalem.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
Well wouldn't they have at least read it from their scholars, taught it in school/college etc?

Yes, but the name has stuck anyway. There are plenty of things like that, that retain old names and concepts even after they are proven wrong. People still believe that hair and fingernails grow after death, that people are supposed to have eight glasses of water a day, and plenty of other things that are taught to be false.

I find it reasonable to believe that something is there where this massive battle took place. Thousands of people fighting....temples and cities etc....

I totally agree. Problem is, we don't know where it is.​
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Well wouldn't they have at least read it from their scholars, taught it in school/college etc?
Most of these kids are 19 years old. They've had a year of college, if that. If you need to do additional research to know if there was seismic and volcanic activity in Meoamerica somewhere around 34 A.D., why would you expect these kids to know?

I find it reasonable to believe that something is there where this massive battle took place. Thousands of people fighting....temples and cities etc....
But that's the point, DreGod. Nobody knows exactly where this battle took place.​

I remember on Discovery or TLC that archaeologist had found a city buried under tons of volcanic ash. Here it is thousands of years later and archeologist are still digging and finding stuff in Jerusalem.
Well, give us another thousand years before you bring the jury back in. We did, after all, get a late start. :cool:
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Stop beating me to the punch, DeepShadow. Isn't it past your bedtime all the way over there in Florida?
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
You're operating under the premise that all of this should matter. You know as well as I do that if some kind of artifacts were discovered at the Hill Cumorah, the only ones who would accept the findings as valid evidence would be those who already believe. Everybody else would try to find reasons why it wasn't legitimate proof of anything. The most significant artifact that could possibly be discovered in the area was unearthed in 1830 and was published as a book of sacred scripture that is summarily dismissed as a fraud by pretty much everybody but 13 million people worldwide. We have no desire to gain converts who need to find a sword inscribed with Moroni's name on it in order to believe. That's what the skeptics just don't seem to get.

May I suggest Book of Mormon Evidences.


I'll checkout the link.....

For me, I'm not interested in finding golden plates or a sword rather a whole lot of history. If a great battle took place.... we should expect to find evidence of said battle......It's just an observation.....


EDIT: Ok I can retract the above because you both have responded to them. I type too slow....:).......

I'm off to do research.......:)
 

mudge991

Member
So far (after reading this lengthy post) there still isnt any empirical evidence to support the book of mormon at all. Aside from the evidence that large parts of it were copied from the bible, which itself is suspect, it can also be shown that the Book of Mormon contains an extraordinary number of unacknowledged Biblical quotes. The exact number is difficult to pin down, but can safely be said to exceed several hundred.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
So far (after reading this lengthy post) there still isnt any empirical evidence to support the book of mormon at all. Aside from the evidence that large parts of it were copied from the bible, which itself is suspect, it can also be shown that the Book of Mormon contains an extraordinary number of unacknowledged Biblical quotes. The exact number is difficult to pin down, but can safely be said to exceed several hundred.

I would also say there are parallels to the Koran.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
So far (after reading this lengthy post) there still isnt any empirical evidence to support the book of mormon at all. Aside from the evidence that large parts of it were copied from the bible, which itself is suspect, it can also be shown that the Book of Mormon contains an extraordinary number of unacknowledged Biblical quotes. The exact number is difficult to pin down, but can safely be said to exceed several hundred.

Except the paleolinguistic evidence. Did you miss that part? It's a long thread.
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
Personally I don't think there is enough information in the Book of Mormon to corroborate it with any archeological evidence. It is after all the translation of a summary. Summaries don't usually contain detailed information, just the highlights.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I would also say there are parallels to the Koran.

I find the claims in the BoM paralleling the Bible and the Quran. The book of revelations alone is a weird piece of literature. I know it shouldn't be taken literally. This is just one example. The garden of eden, great worldwide flood and other stories borderline on mythology......paralleling Sumerian stories. The NT stories of Yeshua resemble stories of other cultures who recorded there events long before there was a Yeshua......

As far as the bible is concerned I can at least come across some information and confirm it with archaeological findings. I can do the same with Islam.

For mormons I understand, at least now I do, that no one knows where this great battle took place. We can certainly narrow it down to either North America or South America. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So far, that I know of, no north american indian tribes have recorded such a battle of such great magnitude or multitude. The massive amounts of deaths I discovered in south america seemed to center around religious rituals. So far I haven't discovered the tribes in south america writing about such a battle of great multitude or magnitude.

I'm wondering now why there is talk of this great battle being unknown. As far back as the 1800's there were leaders in the LDS Church stating that the battle was in fact at the Hill Cumorah in New York. For such a claim to be made that this IS NOT the location could mean that the church has done a dig to discover nothing is there. Scoutting around I did find some of the leaders relating Cumorah to the battle or where the plates were found;

"The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)

"Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Aug. 25, 1878 Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, pg. 62)

"Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people around the hill Cumorah, in the State of New York , in Ontario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region. The two nations were four years in gathering their forces, during which no fighting took place; but at the end of that time, having marshalled all their hosts, the fighting commenced, the Lamanites coming upon the Nephites, and destroying all of them, except a very few, who had previously deserted over to the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, April 6, 1874 Journal of Discourses Vol. 17, pg. 24)

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)

"The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York ." (Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith , chapter 14)

"It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."

"It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

"Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history...." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)

I have plenty of other quotes but if this is no longer the official stance then what has changed to now take focus away from what was taught to now say Hill Cumorah is not in New York but central america? Back on October 16 1990 Bishop Darrel L. Brooks wrote a letter stating "The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon."

If all of this is incorrect then what else is wrong?

Again, I'm still researching.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure any of what you posted is "official" since none of it came from the canon. Also, whether or not it is official, it may be classified as dicta.
 

mudge991

Member
To date, nothing has been found to verify Book of Mormon sites. In fact, many within the Mormon Church are beginning to abandon the idea that the Book of Mormon is a book of verifiable history. No credible archaeologist outside of the Mormon Church considers the book to have any New World archaeological value.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top