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Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

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Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I'm not sure any of what you posted is "official" since none of it came from the canon. Also, whether or not it is official, it may be classified as dicta.

I have other quotes from individuals. Some of these people were in position to teach others (i.e. "Apostle Orson Pratt"). Him, being listed as an apostle, was he and many, many others who held the same belief wrong for making those statements? See, we can only go by what we read or hear from from your apostles and prohhets. If they tell us the battle was at The Hill Cumorah in New York then surely they must be correct. That's what (they) said. This isn't something (we) misinterpreted.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I'm wondering now why there is talk of this great battle being unknown. As far back as the 1800's there were leaders in the LDS Church stating that the battle was in fact at the Hill Cumorah in New York. For such a claim to be made that this IS NOT the location could mean that the church has done a dig to discover nothing is there. Scoutting around I did find some of the leaders relating Cumorah to the battle or where the plates were found;

"The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)

"Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Aug. 25, 1878 Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, pg. 62)

"Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people around the hill Cumorah, in the State of New York , in Ontario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region. The two nations were four years in gathering their forces, during which no fighting took place; but at the end of that time, having marshalled all their hosts, the fighting commenced, the Lamanites coming upon the Nephites, and destroying all of them, except a very few, who had previously deserted over to the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, April 6, 1874 Journal of Discourses Vol. 17, pg. 24)

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)

"The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York ." (Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith , chapter 14)

"It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."

"It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

"Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history...." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)

I have plenty of other quotes but if this is no longer the official stance then what has changed to now take focus away from what was taught to now say Hill Cumorah is not in New York but central america? Back on October 16 1990 Bishop Darrel L. Brooks wrote a letter stating "The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon."
I guess you just haven't picked up on this yet, DreGod, but you have not yet quoted from any source that qualifies as official LDS doctrine. It's true that there has been speculation as to where the final battle described in the Book of Mormon took place. This speculation started out early on and continues today. It's not a matter of something that was once the official stance no longer being the official stance. There has never been an official stance. But the Church leadership has NEVER issued an official statement stating that God has revealed the location of this event.

Again, I'm still researching.
Why?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I have other quotes from individuals. Some of these people were in position to teach others (i.e. "Apostle Orson Pratt"). Him, being listed as an apostle, was he and many, many others who held the same belief wrong for making those statements? See, we can only go by what we read or hear from from your apostles and prohhets. If they tell us the battle was at The Hill Cumorah in New York then surely they must be correct. That's what (they) said. This isn't something (we) misinterpreted.
DreGod, you're wrong. It's as simple as that. The only official statements of LDS doctrine come from (a) our "Standard Works": The Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, and (b) statements issues to the Church as a whole by the combined First Presidency (i.e. the President of the Church and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Any statements by any one of these individuals alone should be considered nothing more than one man's opinion on the subject. Unfortunately, that's not what our critics would like to base their decisions on, but that's how it is.
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
[/b]It's not a matter of something that was once the official stance no longer being the official stance. There has never been an official stance. But the Church leadership has NEVER issued an official statement stating that God has revealed the location of this event.

Oohhh. Excellent statement. Great way to put that. I'll have to remember that.
 

mudge991

Member
Sure, I checked everywhere for a reputable source and found only guesses.
In a book utilizing private correspondence from the pen of now-deceased Mormon archaeologist Thomas Stuart Ferguson (1915-1983), Stan Larson (Ph.D. from University of Birmingham in England) provides a fascinating portrayal of a man whom both Mormons and evangelical Christians alike consider an enigma. No doubt Ferguson, who once worked for the LDS Church translation services and wrote the popular book titled One Fold and One Shepherd, was a troubled man. Frustrated by the lack of evidence to support the Book of Mormon that he so strongly believed in from the beginning of his archeological mission, Ferguson became a closet doubter while upholding his public Mormon image and never leaving the Mormon Church.

As far as the location of the Book of Mormon's Hill Cumorah, Larson shows how the young Ferguson understood that Joseph Smith held to the "New York View," even utilizing Smith's supposed discovery of the bones of a white Lamanite named "Zelph." Yet Ferguson disagreed with a possible North American setting for the Book of Mormon, saying that the "Isthmus of Tehuantepec" theory made more sense. Indeed, he held that the Book of Mormon history belonged in Mesoamerica. Today FARMS and a number of Mormons in the United States would agree with Ferguson and point south when asked where the Book of Mormon events took place. Of course, the question as to how the golden plates of the Book of Mormon ever made it 3,000+ miles away in New York is a tough issue for them to handle.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Sure, I checked everywhere for a reputable source and found only guesses.
In a book utilizing private correspondence from the pen of now-deceased Mormon archaeologist Thomas Stuart Ferguson (1915-1983), Stan Larson (Ph.D. from University of Birmingham in England) provides a fascinating portrayal of a man whom both Mormons and evangelical Christians alike consider an enigma. No doubt Ferguson, who once worked for the LDS Church translation services and wrote the popular book titled One Fold and One Shepherd, was a troubled man. Frustrated by the lack of evidence to support the Book of Mormon that he so strongly believed in from the beginning of his archeological mission, Ferguson became a closet doubter while upholding his public Mormon image and never leaving the Mormon Church.

As far as the location of the Book of Mormon's Hill Cumorah, Larson shows how the young Ferguson understood that Joseph Smith held to the "New York View," even utilizing Smith's supposed discovery of the bones of a white Lamanite named "Zelph." Yet Ferguson disagreed with a possible North American setting for the Book of Mormon, saying that the "Isthmus of Tehuantepec" theory made more sense. Indeed, he held that the Book of Mormon history belonged in Mesoamerica. Today FARMS and a number of Mormons in the United States would agree with Ferguson and point south when asked where the Book of Mormon events took place. Of course, the question as to how the golden plates of the Book of Mormon ever made it 3,000+ miles away in New York is a tough issue for them to handle.
For crying out loud, what's your problem -- aside from the fact that you shouldn't be posting on this forum anyway? Did you not read anything I just said or do you just have a real problem with reading comprehension?
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
***MOD POST***

If you are not a Christian, then keep out of this thread. This is the same faith debates.

Thank you.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
***MOD POST***

If you are not a Christian, then keep out of this thread. This is the same faith debates.

Thank you.


OOOOOOPPPPPSSSSS..........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I apologize. I was simply responding by the title. I did not realize it was same faith.......But it is a fascinating subject and and may be should be moved to a debate are......just a thought.....
 

tomspug

Absorbant
DreGod, you're wrong. It's as simple as that. The only official statements of LDS doctrine come from (a) our "Standard Works": The Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, and (b) statements issues to the Church as a whole by the combined First Presidency (i.e. the President of the Church and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Any statements by any one of these individuals alone should be considered nothing more than one man's opinion on the subject. Unfortunately, that's not what our critics would like to base their decisions on, but that's how it is.

NOW they are, you mean. How convenient that unreliable religious documents are discarded so quickly by the LDS church.
 

mudge991

Member
Dre's on it today... wow hehe.

Jeeze i wonder why people always change the subject when their own works show how silly they are. So far no response other than whining.... I suppose when confronted with facts, the new and improved Mormon just ignores things and start crying.

Let me help you...
The Mormon church uses two sources as its primary authorities: the Book of Mormon and the Bible. The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl
The Mormon church views Jesus and Satan as spirit brothers and sons of God. God put forth His plan of salvation for the world, and Satan proposed his own plan. Jesus accepted the Father's plan and offered to implement it as the Savior. The Father chose Jesus, and the spirit of Jesus was given a body through the virgin Mary. He was crucified on a Roman cross, and rose from the dead three days later to establish His deity. The character and life of Jesus is attainable by anyone who performs at such a righteous level.
And ......
Lorenzo Snow, late President of the Mormon church, made this statement in the second verse of his famous poem entitled, "Man's Destiny":
"As Abra'm, Isaac, Jacob, too, babes, then men--to gods they grew. As man now is, our God once was; As now God is, so man may be,-- Which doth unfold man's destiny. . ."



And you wonder why Christians label Mormons as a cult?
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
I don't believe I whined or cried. I stated a simple fact: What Dre posted is not "official."

Deal with it.
 

trinity2359

Active Member
DreGod, you're wrong. It's as simple as that. The only official statements of LDS doctrine come from (a) our "Standard Works": The Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, and (b) statements issues to the Church as a whole by the combined First Presidency (i.e. the President of the Church and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Any statements by any one of these individuals alone should be considered nothing more than one man's opinion on the subject. Unfortunately, that's not what our critics would like to base their decisions on, but that's how it is.

Just for clarification purposes only, where does General Conference (and Priesthood/Relief Society/Young Women's conferences) fall? Opinion or Doctrine? And CES books?
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
I find the claims in the BoM paralleling the Bible and the Quran. The book of revelations alone is a weird piece of literature. I know it shouldn't be taken literally. This is just one example. The garden of eden, great worldwide flood and other stories borderline on mythology......paralleling Sumerian stories. The NT stories of Yeshua resemble stories of other cultures who recorded there events long before there was a Yeshua......

As far as the bible is concerned I can at least come across some information and confirm it with archaeological findings. I can do the same with Islam.

For mormons I understand, at least now I do, that no one knows where this great battle took place. We can certainly narrow it down to either North America or South America. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So far, that I know of, no north american indian tribes have recorded such a battle of such great magnitude or multitude. The massive amounts of deaths I discovered in south america seemed to center around religious rituals. So far I haven't discovered the tribes in south america writing about such a battle of great multitude or magnitude.

I'm wondering now why there is talk of this great battle being unknown. As far back as the 1800's there were leaders in the LDS Church stating that the battle was in fact at the Hill Cumorah in New York. For such a claim to be made that this IS NOT the location could mean that the church has done a dig to discover nothing is there. Scoutting around I did find some of the leaders relating Cumorah to the battle or where the plates were found;

"The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)

"Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Aug. 25, 1878 Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, pg. 62)

"Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people around the hill Cumorah, in the State of New York , in Ontario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region. The two nations were four years in gathering their forces, during which no fighting took place; but at the end of that time, having marshalled all their hosts, the fighting commenced, the Lamanites coming upon the Nephites, and destroying all of them, except a very few, who had previously deserted over to the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, April 6, 1874 Journal of Discourses Vol. 17, pg. 24)

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)

"The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York ." (Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith , chapter 14)

"It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."

"It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

"Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history...." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)

I have plenty of other quotes but if this is no longer the official stance then what has changed to now take focus away from what was taught to now say Hill Cumorah is not in New York but central america? Back on October 16 1990 Bishop Darrel L. Brooks wrote a letter stating "The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon."

If all of this is incorrect then what else is wrong?

Again, I'm still researching.

I was referring to the fact that both authors encountered an angel with no witnesses to the event, and as a result, they mysteriously claim that they were prophets of God. Granted, Moses witnessed the burning bush without witnesses, however, his journey with the Israelites was not short of witnessed miracles. The authors of the Quran and the Book of Mormon have no such claim. Secondly, haven't one or more of the witnesses that saw the Golden Plates recanted their stories.
 

mudge991

Member
The Pearl of Great Price is one of the four holy books of the Mormon church in addition to the King James Version Bible (interpreted by the Mormon church), the Book of Mormon, and Doctrines and Covenants. The Mormon Church holds the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price to be as inspired and authoritative as the Bible. The Pearl of Great Price is comprised of four books: the book of Moses, the book of Abraham, the book of Joseph Smith - Matthew, and the Book of Joseph Smith - History. The Pearl of Great Price also contains thirteen brief statements of what Mormons believe.
Other than the first chapter, the book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price is identical to Genesis 1:1 through 8:18 in the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible. Joseph Smith claimed the book of Abraham came from Egyptian papyri and was then translated the same way the gold plates of the book of Mormon were translated. Joseph Smith - Matthew is basically Matthew chapter 23, verse 39 through Matthew chapter 24 rearranged and some commentary added. Joseph Smith - History is Joseph Smith's story of how God and Jesus visited him when he was fourteen and told him not to join with any existing church. It also records how the angel Moroni visited him, how John the Baptist gave him the Aaronic priesthood, and how Peter, James, and John conferred the Melchizedek priesthood on him.

That is the silliness I was referring to.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Dre's on it today... wow hehe.

Well I wasn't posting to upset any mormons here. I was just interested in a few things that's never made any sense to me (The great battle and the Lost Book of Abraham)......to mention a few....

I've read a lot of information and some from the apologist and they still don't make any sense. I have moved on to another morman area that is actually setup for debating.
 
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