Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

[Quiddity]

I disagree.
Because everything has been done EXCEPT your choosing to walk through the door.

How do you think you even have the ability to choose and walk?

Anyways, this is probably going to head us off course. But if you want, you can call it a cop out again. No skin off my back.

 

[McBell]

How do you think you even have the ability to choose and walk?

Anyways, this is probably going to head us off course. But if you want, you can call it a cop out again. No skin off my back.

Your reading comprehension skills are seriously lacking.

 

[Katzpur]

Understood, what I am pointing out is that many Christians doubt the LDS, and therefor, the Book of Mormon, because of what they would consider very strange beliefs and practices within the LDS.

Whatever. Different is not necessarily wrong.

 

[Katzpur]

It is my understanding that Jesus ALREADY did everything required ON HIS PART for you to be saved.

It is NOW up to each individual to accept Jesus.
So who saves you?
Not Jesus, Jesus merely opened the door.
YOU have to walk through it.

Okay, well within this context, what you're saying makes sense.

There is a little couplet that a fellow-LDS friend of mine teaches her kids pertaining to the relationship between faith and works. It goes like this:

Getting on the train is free.
How far I go is up to me.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Whatever. Different is not necessarily wrong.

Did not say it was wrong. The question asked is why Christians do not accept the BoM.
Personally I do not believe in any Reveled Revelation.

 

[Katzpur]

Did not say it was wrong. The question asked is why Christians do not accept the BoM.

I stand corrected. You did not say it was wrong. But just FYI, most of these doctrines are not taught in the Book of Mormon. When it really boils down to is that most Christians do not accept the Book of Mormon as scripture for the simple reason that it exists. They may not have a clue what the Book of Mormon teaches and may not be able to find anything in it with which to disagree, but they simply cannot conceive of the idea that the Bible does not contain all of God's word. The fact that the Book of Mormon purports to be another sacred record is, for whatever reason, offensive to them.

Personally I do not believe in any Reveled Revelation.

So do you believe in unrevealed revelation?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I stand corrected. You did not say it was wrong. But just FYI, most of these doctrines are not taught in the Book of Mormon. When it really boils down to is that most Christians do not accept the Book of Mormon as scripture for the simple reason that it exists.

That's ridiculous! That is not why Christians don't accept the Book of Mormon. No one has given that as a reason in this thread. I've never heard of anyone giving that as a reason.

They may not have a clue what the Book of Mormon teaches and may not be able to find anything in it with which to disagree, but they simply cannot conceive of the idea that the Bible does not contain all of God's word. The fact that the Book of Mormon purports to be another sacred record is, for whatever reason, offensive to them.

It is Mormonism that is offensive to Christians because it claims to have more truth when, in fact, it has less. The Book of Mormon does teach that works are necessary for salvation, but most people probably don't know that. The Book of Mormon does not teach that God the Father has a body of flesh bone, but most people probably don't know that. The Book of Mormon does not talk about various levels of reward in the next life but most people probably don't know that. The Book of Mormon does not talk about the necessity of temples but most people probably don't know that. People are aware of some of the teachings of Mormonism that contradict the Bible. The majority of Christians, whether Protestant, Catholic, or Easter Orthodox, believe in only one God. That in and of itself would cause people to reject the teachings of Joseph Smith, and therefore reject the Book of Mormon.

 

[McBell]

Getting on the train is free.
How far I go is up to me.

Exactly.

 

[RemnanteK]

Someone today told me that Joseph Smith shot a man in jail and then he himself was killed, is that true or are they pulling my leg?

 

[Katzpur]

Someone today told me that Joseph Smith shot a man in jail and then he himself was killed, is that true or are they pulling my leg?

I hope you don't mind my doing a cut and paste to answer this question. It will give you a little more background than I would be able to without doing a great deal of typing:

From FARMS Review of Books, Vol. 13, No. 2, pp. 109-169 (quoting from pp. 152-155):

"Prior to the martyrdom, Joseph Smith was well aware that a group of conspirators had formed in order to murder him and his brother Hyrum, as well as other important men in the church. When Joseph Smith was in jail at Carthage, Thomas C. Sharp, who had organized an anti-Mormon political party in 1841, wrote in the Warsaw Signal: "We have seen and heard enough to convince us that Joe Smith is not safe out of Nauvoo, and we would not be surprised to hear of his death by violent means in a short time. He has deadly enemies.. . . The feeling of this country . . . will break forth in fury upon the slightest provocation." Joseph Smith knew that he would die at Carthage. As he left Nauvoo, he stated, "I am going like a lamb to the slaughter."

The day and evening of the martyrdom (27 June), General Deming, who had command of the Carthage Greys, was to guard the jail, but he left during the day for fear of losing his life. The main group was in the public square, while eight individuals were to guard the prisoners under the command of Sergeant Frank A. Worrell. "The disbanded mob militia had come up to Carthage to the number of two hundred, with their faces blackened with powder and mud. . . . it was then arranged that the guard at the jail should load with blank cartridges and that the mob should attack the prison and meet with some show of resistance."

Joseph had been given a weapon earlier that day by Cyrus H. Wheelock, who had come to the jail to get messages to carry back to Nauvoo. The gun was a small one, known as a "pepper-box" revolver. According to Truman G. Madsen, a few individuals attempted to save the Prophet's life by testifying in his behalf. Stephen Markhameven offered to exchange clothes so that the Prophet could escape in disguise, but Joseph declined. "After all these efforts, the only real thing the Prophet had between him and the final scene was a pistol which Cyrus Wheelock had brought him." The prisoners had only two pistols and two walking sticks with which to defend themselves.

Sometime after 5:00 p.m., when the prisoners had been notified that Stephen Markham had been driven from Carthage by the mob, "there was a slight rustling at the outer door of the jail, and a cry of surrender, then a discharge of three or four guns. The plot had been carried out: two hundred of the mob came rushing into the jail yard." George Q. Cannon reports that many members of the mob "rushed up the stairs while others fired through the open windows of the jail into the room where the brethren were confined. The four prisoners sprang against the door, but the murderers burst it partly open and pushed their guns into the room." As John Taylor and Willard Richards tried to knock the guns from the hands of the mob, a "shower of bullets came up the stairway and through the door." "Continual discharges of musketry came into the room."

According to the account in the History of the Church, John Taylor continued to try to ward off the guns of the mobsters until the guns extended approximately half their length into the room. Deciding that it was useless to fight, he tried to jump out of the window, at which point he was shot. Hyrum was also shot. "When Hyrum fell, Joseph exclaimed, 'Oh dear, brother Hyrum!' and opening the door a few inches he discharged his six shooter in the stairway,. . . two or three barrels of which missed fire." Finally, Joseph dropped his pistol and attempted to jump from the window but was shot in the chest and fell out of the window. Madsen reports that thirty-six bullets were fired into the prisoners' room within two minutes. Joseph and Hyrum each received five bullets, and John Taylor was shot four times.

These descriptions of the martyrdom hardly depict a "gun battle." The prisoners were locked inside their room, had no more than two guns, and were trying to defend themselves against an armed mob of at least two hundred men. As Dallin H. Oaks and Marvin S. Hill write, "The murder of Joseph and Hyrum Smith at Carthage, Illinois, was not a spontaneous, impulsive act by a few personal enemies of the Mormon leaders, but a deliberate political assassination, committed or condoned by some of the leading citizens in Hancock County."

Some may ask why Joseph used any weapons if he knew he was to die at Carthage. Apparently, he was more concerned with the well-being of those with whom he was associated than with his own. The Prophet had "promised those brethren in the name of the Lord that he would defend them even if it meant giving up his life." He had given his word to the Saints in 1842 that "When my enemies take away my rights, I will bear it and keep out of the way; but if they take away your rights,I will fight for you." Joseph clearly did not condone the oppression of his people. On 18 June, Joseph had told the Nauvoo Legion, "while I live, I will never tamely submit to the dominion of cursed mobocracy." On the issue of using a gun at Carthage, Joseph and Hyrum agreed that they disliked the idea, but Joseph thought it necessary for them to defend themselves. Joseph said, "Could my brother Hyrum but be liberated it would not matter so much about me." It has been speculated that when Joseph finally tried to escape from the window, he did so in order to save the life of Willard Richards, since it was Joseph the assassins wanted to kill. Joseph was shot from behind two or three times before he fell out of the window. Even after the Prophet had fallen from the window, the murderers continued to shoot at his dead body.

The Prophet Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum were murdered by a large group of angry mobsters. They did shoot at the mobsters, but only in defense of their lives. To make this gruesome, plotted murder sound as though it were the result of some sort of duel, with each party acting with similar ferocity, is highly inaccurate and insulting."
​

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Someone today told me that Joseph Smith shot a man in jail and then he himself was killed, is that true or are they pulling my leg?

Joseph Smith destroyed a printing press because he didn't like what they were printing. Governor Ford of Illinois declared Nauvoo under Marshall law and Joseph and his brother Hyrum were arrested. They were in a jail cell along with John Taylor. Someone had smuggled guns into the cell. A mob evidently stormed the jail, Hyrum pulled out his gun (single barrel) and fired but was killed. Then Joseph shot his six shooter wounding three men. Joseph ran to the window but two bullets hit him from the door. John Taylor was later informed that two of those shot by Joseph Smith had died.

The following is copied from the Times and Seasons:—

TWO MINUTES IN JAIL.​

Possibly the following events occupied near three minutes, but I think only about two, and have penned them for the gratification of many friends.

CARTHAGE, June 27, 1844.​

A shower of musket balls were thrown up the stairway against the door of the prison in the second story, followed by many rapid footsteps.
While Generals Joseph and Hyrum Smith, Mr. Taylor, and myself, who were in the front chamber, closed the door of our room against the entry at the head of the stairs, and placed ourselves against it, there being no lock on the door, and no catch that was usable.
The door is a common panel, and as soon as we heard the feet at the stairs head, a ball was sent through the door, which passed between us, and showed that our enemies were desperadoes, and we must change our position.
General Joseph Smith, Mr. Taylor and myself sprang back to the front part of the room, and General Hyrum Smith retreated two-thirds across the chamber directly in front of and facing the door.
A ball was sent through the door which hit Hyrum on the side of his nose, when he fell backwards, extended at length, without moving his feet.
From the holes in his vest (the day was warm, and no one had his coat on but myself), pantaloons, drawer, and shirt, it appears evident that a ball must have been thrown from without, through the window, which entered his back on the right side, and passing through, lodged against his watch, which was in his right vest pocket, completely pulverizing the crystal and face, tearing off the hands and mashing the whole body of the watch. At the same instant the ball from the door entered his nose.
As he struck the floor he exclaimed emphatically, "I am a dead man." Joseph looked towards him and responded, "Oh, dear brother Hyrum!" and opening the door two or three inches with his left hand, discharged one barrel of a six shooter (pistol) at random in the entry, from whence a ball grazed Hyrum's breast, and entering his throat passed into his head, while other muskets were aimed at him and some balls hit him.
Joseph continued snapping his revolver round the easing of the door into the space as before, three barrels of which missed fire, while Mr. Taylor with a walking stick stood by his side and knocked down the bayonets and muskets which were constantly discharging through the doorway, while I stood by him, ready to lend any assistance, with another stick, but could not come within striking distance without going directly before the muzzle of the guns.
When the revolver failed, we had no more firearms, and expected an immediate rush of the mob, and the doorway full of muskets, half way in the room, and no hope but instant death from within.
Mr. Taylor rushed into the window, which is some fifteen or twenty feet from the ground. When his body was nearly on a balance, a ball from the door within entered his leg, and a ball from without struck his watch, a patent lever, in his vest pocket near the left breast, and smashed it into "pie," leaving the hands standing at 5 o'clock, 16 minutes, and 26 seconds, the force of which ball threw him back on the floor. and he rolled under the bed which stood by his side, where he lay motionless, the mob from the door continuing to fire upon him, cutting away a piece of flesh from his left hip as large as a man's hand, and were hindered only by my knocking down their muzzles with a stick; while they continued to reach their guns into the room, probably left handed, and aimed their discharge so far round as almost to reach us in the corner of the room to where we retreated and dodged, and then I recommenced the attack with my stick.
Joseph attempted, as the last resort, to leap the same window from whence Mr. Taylor fell, when two balls pierced him from the door, and one entered his right breast from without, and he fell outward, exclaiming, "Oh Lord, my God!" As his feet went out of the window my head went in, the balls whistling all around. He fell on his left side a dead man.
At this instant the cry was raised, "He's leaped the window!" and the mob on the stairs and in the entry ran out.
I withdrew from the window, thinking it of no use to leap out on a hundred bayonets, then around General Joseph Smith's body.
Not satisfied with this I again reached my head out of the window, and watched some seconds to see if there were any signs of life, regardless of my own, determined to see the end of him I loved. Being fully satisfied that he was dead, with a hundred men near the body and more coming round the corner of the jail, and expecting a return to our room, I rushed towards the prison door, at the head of the stairs, and through the entry from whence the firing had proceeded, to learn if the doors into the prison were open.
When near the entry, Mr. Taylor called out, "Take me." I pressed my way until I found all doors unbarred, returning instantly, caught Mr. Taylor under my arm and rushed by the stairs into the dungeon, or inner prison, stretched him on the floor and covered him with a bed in such a manner as not likely to be perceived, expecting an immediate return of the mob.
I said to Mr. Taylor, "This is a hard case to lay you on the floor, but if your wounds are not fatal, I want you to live to tell the story." I expected to be shot the next moment, and stood before the door awaiting the onset.

WILLARD RICHARDS.​

History of the Church, Vol. 6, Chapter 34, p. 619-621

 

[RemnanteK]

Katzpur & ἀλήθεια

Thanks, wow that is crazy. Talk about wrong place wrong time.
Now I can tell the guy that told me more of the story.
I like history, that that was good info.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/../members/katzpur-2540.html

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Katzpur & ἀλήθεια

Thanks, wow that is crazy. Talk about wrong place wrong time.
Now I can tell the guy that told me more of the story.
I like history, that that was good info.

You should read more about that. All the stuff going on in and around Nauvoo. It was like the wild west stories. Even in eastern Illinois way back when, one of my relatives was accused of stealing farm equipment and the person who accused him murdered him. Who knows all the details?

The newspaper that Joseph Smith didn't like was supposedly printing information about his "secret" polygamous activities.

You'll be interested in the following:

Nauvoo Expositor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[madhatter85]

The thing is, nothing is secret, ever has been, or ever will be.

All doctrines, beliefs, practices, and ordinances are available to everyone on the planet.

There are certain things that we consider very sacred. just as you don't go around telling people everything about your life that are personal to you. I'm sure that you, just like everyone else, will share those things when you feel it is appropriate or comfortable to do so.

Even our most sacred ceremonies are recorded in the Library of Congress.

All church history is available for anyone to research. The LDS church has nothing to hide, nor ever has or ever will.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

The thing is, nothing is secret, ever has been, or ever will be.

All doctrines, beliefs, practices, and ordinances are available to everyone on the planet.

Polygamy was not always out in the open.

 

[edward]

Edward, I think you're twisting that to mean something other than what it really means. Let's say I inadvertantly left my car keys on a counter at at a store when I paid for my purchase and then walked off. The clerk, knowing I was the last person she had helped, picked up the keys and caught me just as I was leaving the store. She could say, "Aren't these your keys?" Or she could say, "Are these not your keys?" In either case, she is assuming that they are, in fact, my keys. The word "not" or the use of the word "aren't" which is simply a contraction for "are not" implies that she believes they are my keys as simply wishes to confirm that. When a person asks God if "these things are not true," the assumption is that they are. "Is this book not the truth?"

I don't believe that I am "twisting" anything. I am merely pointing out that this particular passage can be interpreted another way. Of course the LDS would not accept that interpretation. I wouldn't expect them to.

The Holy Ghost would only be expected to reveal that the book is true under the following conditions: (1) The person asking must have read it. (2) The person must be asking God with a sincere heart and real intent to know. (3) The person must have faith in Christ.

Are these stipulations listed anywhere in you doctrine? I'm not disputing your criterion, only wondering why these weren't mentioned when I was challenged to pray about that book.

What, specifically, about the Book of Mormon did the Holy Ghost reveal to you was not true? I can't believe that you would have much argument with it's general premise -- that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of mankind. The Holy Ghost didn't reveal to you that that was false, did He?

No, I do believe that Jesus Christ is the savior and creator of the universe (not to mention many, many other things). Yes, I DO believe that because the Holy Ghost/Spirit personally revealed it to me.

What I do NOT believe is the Joseph Smith story about that book or his story about the 1st vision. If I do not and cannot believe those two things, how and why would I be expected believe anything that he said ABOUT those things?

If God has revealed to me that the LDS church is not true, why would I be expected to pray about it again. Why would I contradict God? That would be foolishness and personally destructive.

Edward

 

[lockyfan]

Why don't Christians accept the Book of Mormon to be true? It testifys of Christ our Savior, as the Messiah, the Great Mediator. And it's a solid Book, it has substance.

You don't believe there is any way that Christ would have appeared to his "Sheep of another fold" (mentioned in the bible) in the americas after his ressurection. Or that Both God and Christ would appear to a modern day prophet.

Yet, they believe that God, or even the "Mother Mary" would speak to 6 old women in Bosnia?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on why you think the way you do.

I know i am going right back to the beginning, but i believe that the bible is the word of God and when it says at
Rev 22:18-19
I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.

So while i have heard things about how the book of Mormon was found, I dont believe it is from God himself because of what this scripture is saying

 

[McBell]

I know i am going right back to the beginning, but i believe that the bible is the word of God and when it says at
Rev 22:18-19
I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.

So while i have heard things about how the book of Mormon was found, I dont believe it is from God himself because of what this scripture is saying

Your kidding right?
What exactly do you think it means by "this scroll"?

 

[zomg]

I know i am going right back to the beginning, but i believe that the bible is the word of God and when it says at
Rev 22:18-19
I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.

So while i have heard things about how the book of Mormon was found, I dont believe it is from God himself because of what this scripture is saying

:no:
This verse is talking about the Book of Revelation, not the Bible.
Everyone knows that.
:sleep:

 

[sojourner]

And what is that, exactly? Could someone please lay out for me what exactly constitutes the gospel message (which is, according to you) "God's 'Plan of Salvation.'" What is that plan? Secondly, in what way are the canonicals inadequate to proclaiming that message?

No LDS person wants to answer this question?