Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

[Watchmen]

Since the anti-Mormons are determined to derail this thread I suggest they start a new one.

 

[RemnanteK]

Sad but true, I think it has turned into a who's more right fest.

We should talk about something that matters, like my Friend Jesus!

 

[Katzpur]

Since the anti-Mormons are determined to derail this thread I suggest they start a new one.

I think we can all just take a sabbatical. After all, Alexander Haig is here and in charge!

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Sad but true, I think it has turned into a who's more right fest.

We should talk about something that matters, like my Friend Jesus!

Start a thread but not in the Same Faith Debates section.

 

[Watchmen]

Pray tell, who are the "anti-Mormons?" Are they the ones who do not accept the Book of Mormon as Valid? The same ones who do not accept Joseph Smith as a Prophet or disagree with Mormon doctrine? May I direct you to post numbers 1410; 1456; 1469; 1480; 1591; 1592 and 1593. Please tell me who was attempting to derail this thread.

That is a rather inflammatory moniker that you are throwing around. One might even think that it is provoking the non-Mormons. What do you think?

Edward

Edward, I'm done flinging insults and I would hope you can do the same. Katzpur started a thread to discuss the LDS plan of salvation. It's here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/latter-day-saints/77708-plan-salvation-beginning-end.html. Eternal life is certainly part of that plan. If you'd like to have a friendly discussion about the topic, I suggest you visit that thread.

Have a good weekend.

 

[Watchmen]

The Keys of the Priesthood
There are keys of the priesthood. While the word key has other meanings, like keys of wisdom or keys of knowledge, the keys of the priesthood are the right to preside and direct the affairs of the Church within a jurisdiction. All priesthood keys are within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and no keys exist outside the Church on earth.
Boyd K. Packer, "What Every Elder Should Know—and Every Sister as Well: A Primer on Principles of Priesthood Government," Ensign, Feb. 1993

None of these LDS teachings have become obsolete. The LDS refer to their Plan of Salvation as "the Gospel."

Endowment
In a general sense, a gift of power from God. Worthy members of the Church can receive a gift of power through ordinances in the temple that gives them the instruction and covenants of the Holy Priesthood that they need in order to attain exaltation. The endowment includes instruction about the plan of salvation.
There you shall be endowed with power from on high, D&C 38: 32, 38
Guide to the Scriptures: Endowment

Katzpur started a thread to discuss the LDS plan of salvation. It's here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/latter-day-saints/77708-plan-salvation-beginning-end.html. Eternal life is certainly part of that plan. If you'd like to have a friendly discussion about the topic, I suggest you visit that thread.

Have a good weekend.

 

[Katzpur]

Pray tell, who are the "anti-Mormons?" Are they the ones who do not accept the Book of Mormon as Valid? The same ones who do not accept Joseph Smith as a Prophet or disagree with Mormon doctrine?

If we considered everyone who did not accept the Book of Mormon as valid or everyone who did not accept Joseph Smith as a prophet to be an "anti-Mormon," there would only be 13 million people in the world who were not "anti-Mormons." Most of the members of RF are not "anti-Mormon" even though they do not share our beliefs and even try on occasion to prove that our beliefs are not in line with the Bible.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

All priesthood keys are within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and no keys exist outside the Church on earth.
Boyd K. Packer, "What Every Elder Should Know—and Every Sister as Well: A Primer on Principles of Priesthood Government," Ensign, Feb. 1993

None of these LDS teachings have become obsolete. The LDS refer to their Plan of Salvation as "the Gospel."

Endowment
In a general sense, a gift of power from God. Worthy members of the Church can receive a gift of power through ordinances in the temple that gives them the instruction and covenants of the Holy Priesthood that they need in order to attain exaltation. The endowment includes instruction about the plan of salvation.
There you shall be endowed with power from on high, D&C 38: 32, 38
Guide to the Scriptures: Endowment

The above which relate to the LDS Plan of Salvation are reasons I do not accept the Book of Mormon as valid. So those quotes belong in this thread.

 

[Watchmen]

The above which relate to the LDS Plan of Salvation are reasons I do not accept the Book of Mormon as valid. So those quotes belong in this thread.

So you don't believe in the Book of Mormons because of LDS teachings regarding the priesthood and the temple. Got it.

 

[RemnanteK]

I've tried to do comparisons with the Bible and the BoM, some things are in both but others are not.
But that is unlike the Old and New testament. I believe in faith, but I also believe God wasn't trying to trick us.
The Bible is just so easy and has many verses to back itself up.
I find when I read the BoM I get confused and have trouble finding backup in the Bible.

I do know one thing though, the LDS are going to see me in heaven!

 

[Katzpur]

I've tried to do comparisons with the Bible and the BoM, some things are in both but others are not.
But that is unlike the Old and New testament. I believe in faith, but I also believe God wasn't trying to trick us.
The Bible is just so easy and has many verses to back itself up.
I find when I read the BoM I get confused and have trouble finding backup in the Bible.

RemnanteK, most of the Book of Mormon takes place on a completely different hemisphere and involves completely different people. I'm not sure what kind of "backup" you're looking for, but perhaps a good study guide would help.

I do know one thing though, the LDS are going to see me in heaven!

I'll recognize you because you'll be the one that's being followed around by a lot of cats. :yes:

 

[RemnanteK]

Which one? Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial?

The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32-34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and understanding of the truth; and 'live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God' " (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

The one where Jesus loves me.

 

[madhatter85]

Which one? Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial?

The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32-34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and understanding of the truth; and 'live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God' " (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

We all fall short of returning to our heavenly father because we are not perfect, nobody is. Christ was a perfect sacrifice, He offered to take the punishment for our sins so that we could come back to live with our father in heaven. And because he lived perfectly and did not sin himself, he can do that because he has no sins of his own to atone for. this way the eternal law of action and consequence that was in place before the foundation of this world can be satisfied.

If we had to atone for our own sins, we could never return to live with our heavenly father because he cannot "look upon sin with the least degree of allowance"

This is also tied to the fall of Adam, and if you read and study the first few chapters of Genesis, or Moses and Abraham in the Pearl of great price you will see that being kicked out of the garden was not punishment, but rather protection from being unable to return to heavenly father. If they were to obtian eternal life after having transgressed the law without the atonement, they would have remained in incorruption for eternity (see first corinthians 15:42). The same goes for all of us, without partaking of the atonement before gaining eternal life we cannot return to live with our heavenly father (1st Corinthians 15:50).

This is why a place is prepared for all those who refuse to partake of the atonement of Jesus Christ. The Telestial and Terrestrial kingdom, The world is not all black and white, so why should heaven be that way? The Terrestrial kingdom is still better than our life here on earth, but is not a fullness of glory, the terrestial is the same way, but even better, for those who led exemplary lives but did not accept the fulness of God's plan of salvation and therefore cannot obtain that which was prepared for them in the Celestial Kingdom. Our Father in Heavenl loves us and wants all of us to return to live with him, But he cannot transgress laws himself or he would cease to be God.

The doctrine of the 3 degrees of glory is located in 1st corinthians, so unless you are a chrisitan who disregards Paul's letters, i wouldn't mock the idea of it.

 

[sojourner]

Katz:
Thank you for your exhaustive treatment of the LDS "plan of salvation." You broke it down well, and showed where we differ (although I don't agree with some of your distinctions, but that's for another debate!). That answered the first part of my question, which was, "what, exactly, is the gospel, according to LDS?" The second part of my question, however, remains unanswered, which was, "In what way does the BOM uniquely put forward that "plan of salvation?"

I ask that question, because I'm hoping that someone can show me an approach to the gospel message that is wholly unique to the four canon gospel books.

our beliefs are not in line with the Bible.

I think many of your beliefs, as laid out in your other thread are not "in line" with the Bible. I would also add that some of our beliefs, as we lay them out, are not strictly "in line" with the Bible. (Firestorm from the evangelicals ensues...)

 

[madhatter85]

Katz:
Thank you for your exhaustive treatment of the LDS "plan of salvation." You broke it down well, and showed where we differ (although I don't agree with some of your distinctions, but that's for another debate!). That answered the first part of my question, which was, "what, exactly, is the gospel, according to LDS?" The second part of my question, however, remains unanswered, which was, "In what way does the BOM uniquely put forward that "plan of salvation?"

I ask that question, because I'm hoping that someone can show me an approach to the gospel message that is wholly unique to the four canon gospel books.

I think many of your beliefs, as laid out in your other thread are not "in line" with the Bible. I would also add that some of our beliefs, as we lay them out, are not strictly "in line" with the Bible. (Firestorm from the evangelicals ensues...)

I'm wonderign who stated that "our beliefs are not in line with the bible", were they LDS? or was it directed toward some other denomination?

The reason i ask is because i know that none of our beliefs are "out of line with the bible"

we believe certain things that are not in the bible, but they do not conflict in any way with it when properly translated and understood.

 

[tomspug]

Longest... thread... ever!

 

[sojourner]

I'm wonderign who stated that "our beliefs are not in line with the bible", were they LDS? or was it directed toward some other denomination?

The reason i ask is because i know that none of our beliefs are "out of line with the bible"

we believe certain things that are not in the bible, but they do not conflict in any way with it when properly translated and understood.

It's a little out of context. Katz stated something to the effect that "many who think our beliefs are out of line with the Bible..."

I don't think much of what was stated in Katz's rendition in the other thread would stand up under Biblical scrutiny. Which is why many more of us are not LDS.

All denominations and bodies of Christians add to what is explicitly stated in the Bible. We have to remember that "implied" is not the same thing as "explicit."

 

[madhatter85]

It's a little out of context. Katz stated something to the effect that "many who think our beliefs are out of line with the Bible..."

I don't think much of what was stated in Katz's rendition in the other thread would stand up under Biblical scrutiny. Which is why many more of us are not LDS.

All denominations and bodies of Christians add to what is explicitly stated in the Bible. We have to remember that "implied" is not the same thing as "explicit."

Any many more aren't chrisitan because they don't believe the bible to be true and accurate.

How do YOU know the bible is true? how do you know for certain that Jesus Christ is who he said he was and what makes you believe that he worked miracles? Because someone said so? I don;t believe that for one instant. No, I am certain you believe it because the Holy Ghost testified to you that it is true. but it is you who closed your mind to believeing in anything outside what someone else handed you. Inteast of studying it and desireing to know if it was true you took one look at it and said "Bah, i don;t need anythign else, i have my bible and anything outside of that is fake."

What have you got to lose? why don't you study it, ponder it, and pray about it? If you are so certain that it is false, what have you against doing these things?

 

[Katzpur]

It's a little out of context. Katz stated something to the effect that "many who think our beliefs are out of line with the Bible..."

I don't think much of what was stated in Katz's rendition in the other thread would stand up under Biblical scrutiny. Which is why many more of us are not LDS.

All denominations and bodies of Christians add to what is explicitly stated in the Bible. We have to remember that "implied" is not the same thing as "explicit."

I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you say that the LDS understanding of the Plan of Salvation "would not stand up under biblical scrutiny." Why don't you give us one example of what you mean and let's discuss it. Keep in mind, though, that our doctrines are based upon four volumes of sacred scripture. It's not as if Joseph Smith or anyone else just sat down with a Bible and tried to infer a desired meaning from certain verses.

 

[sojourner]

Any many more aren't chrisitan because they don't believe the bible to be true and accurate.

How do YOU know the bible is true? how do you know for certain that Jesus Christ is who he said he was and what makes you believe that he worked miracles? Because someone said so? I don;t believe that for one instant. No, I am certain you believe it because the Holy Ghost testified to you that it is true. but it is you who closed your mind to believeing in anything outside what someone else handed you. Inteast of studying it and desireing to know if it was true you took one look at it and said "Bah, i don;t need anythign else, i have my bible and anything outside of that is fake."

What have you got to lose? why don't you study it, ponder it, and pray about it? If you are so certain that it is false, what have you against doing these things?

Let's not confuse one meaning of "accurate" with another meaning of "accurate." If, by "accurate," you mean theologically accurate, I believe it is. If you mean historically or factually accurate, I do not, in all cases. In this case, "true and accurate" refers to the theological ground, not the factual information.

Actually, I have read the BOM. I have met with representatives from the LDS over an eight-week period, talking with them and listening to what their witness. While I found them to be sincere, It didn't ring true for me. I have also read much of D&C. It didn't ring true, either. I think the reason for that was because I perceived the writings to be wholly different from the canon scriptures, both in terms of impetus and in terms of agenda.

I never said the BOM was false. I don't believe that the Koran is "false," nor the sacred writings of other major religions. What I question is not the veracity of the BOM, but its cultural "fit" with the canon scripture. I just don't see a fit. The question, "why don't Christians accept the BOM as valid?" is, to me, like asking why we don't accept the Koran as valid. It is valid for those who are Muslim. It is not valid for Christians, because it presents us with a completely different religious milieu. The BOM does the same for orthodox Xy.