Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
You have an awfully short memory, Fish. You already know the answer to that question.
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Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?
- Thread starter madhatter85
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Christian Pilgrim
Active Member
I'm a nice doggie who likes cats.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
The nausea is already coming on. Where's the throw up smilie when I need it.
Christian Pilgrim
Active Member
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Yeah, well this Kat drools acid.
Christian Pilgrim
Active Member
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Sojourner, I'm going to have to get back to you on your post #1809 that was directed to me. I just have a couple of minutes now and wanted to comment on this particular post. The other one is going to require more time.
When President Hinckley explained how we can come to know that the Book of Mormon contains the word of God, he wasn't saying that we shouldn't also read it critically. He was simply saying that we can't depend upon the kinds of evidence the world requires as proof to determine what only the Holy Ghost can tell us. I noticed you said to Watchmen that Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ because Jesus was standing right there in front of him. Well, that’s true, but the other Apostles appeared to be less certain of who He was, and yet He was standing right there in front of them, too. They explained who He might have been, suggesting John the Baptist, Elias, Jeremias or another of the Old Testament prophets. From the conversation, we can surmise that the subject of Jesus identify had come up before and that they’d tried to arrive at an answer. Peter, on the other hand, did not hesitate, and when he said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” Jesus responded by pointing out that this knowledge was not something that had been revealed to him by flesh and blood (i.e. human knowledge derived from “critical thinking”
but directly through His Father in Heaven. He then goes on to say that “on this rock, I will build my Church.” But what was “the rock”? Here’s where the various denominations don’t seem to be able to agree. Was it Peter himself, as the Catholics seem to think? Was it a literal rock? What was it? We Latter-day Saints interpret “the rock” as being “the rock of revelation,” and we believe that Christ intended to build His Church on continued direction from Heaven to the one person holding the keys here on Earth (which, in the early days of the Church, we believe to have been Peter).We do not believe there is any other way for a person to come to have knowledge of spiritual truths. Spiritual knowledge does not come through “critical reading” or from scholarly research. That is not to say that critical reading is not worthwhile. Certainly it can add a great deal of depth to our knowledge and we are, in fact, encouraged to learn as much as we can about all aspects of both the Book of Mormon and the Bible. But it’s not what gives us our initial testimony of the truth, as much as some of us (including me) would like it to be able to do.
John W. Welch, Professor of Law at Brigham Young University, explained how critical reading and a witness from the Spirit go hand in hand. He said, “I [have] learned… that the Holy Ghost is not found at the end of a syllogism, that deductive logic is restricted by its assumptions, and that inductive sciences are limited…. Those who try by logic to prove the Book of Mormon either true or false invert the actual process…. It seems clear enough that the Lord does not intend the Book of Mormon to be an open-and-shut case intellectually, either pro or con. If God had intended this, He would have left more concrete evidences one way or the other.
Instead, it seems that the Lord has maintained a careful balance between allowing questions that lead one to wonder about the reputed sources of the book and providing counterweights that lead one to affirm the stated origins of the record. This equilibrium invites the world to approach the Book of Mormon ultimately as a matter of faith and as a modern-day miracle, but at the same time gives people ample grounds to take the book seriously.
The study part of this balance is an important ingredient in my testimony of the Book of Mormon. Although scholarship does not create faith, for me it creates an environment in which faith may thrive. I have found over the hears that many intriguing and forceful cases can be made in favor of the Book of Mormon on grounds that combine the resources and faculties of both study and faith. Trying to rely on either faith alone or study alone is like trying to play a violin with only one arm….
Evidence in support of this book’s truth invites people to take it seriously, engenders respect, strengthens the impressions it has on us, brings people to contemplate and entertain its claims, and gives the Holy Spirit a better opportunity to testify that the book is true.”
I hope this help clarify some of what has already been said.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
So how did you receive the Holy Spirit? Acts 8:17-20 says it must be received by the laying on of hands and that this must be done by someone holding the proper authority.
Act 8:17-20 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost is not something that "just happens." It is a sacred ordinance established by Jesus Christ himself.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
What makes you say that? He specifically said that He was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. When He said that His sheep "not of this fold" would "hear [His] voice," He was referring to children of Israel that were not part of the people He was addressing. Furthermore, He said that they would hear His voice, not just hear His message as taught by His followers. What people other than those He was speaking to in the New Testament do you believe heard His voice?ἀλήθεια;1493400 said:
I beg to differ. Here is how the NEB (New English Bible) translates Ezekiel 37:15-20:
[FONT=Geneva,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]These were the words of the Lord to me: Man, take one leaf of a wooden tablet and write on it, 'Judah and his associates of Israel.' Then take another leaf and write on it, 'Joseph, the leaf of Ephraim and all his associates of Israel.' Now bring the two together to form one tablet; they will be a folding tablet in your hand. When your fellow-countrymen ask you to tell them what you mean by this, say to them, These are the words of the Lord God: I am taking the leaf of Joseph, which belongs to Ephraim and his associates of Israel, and joining it to the leaf of Judah. Thus I shall make them one tablet, and they shall be one in my hand. The leaves on which you write shall be visible in your hand for all to see.[/SIZE][/FONT]
Sounds pretty LDS to me, doesn't it to you? There was not one Latter-day Saint involved in this translation, but it says exactly what we believe is the case -- that there will be two written records kept, one for the descendents of Judah and another for the descendents of Joseph.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Okay, LittleNipper, I can't resist the temptation to respond to these comments, even though I previously said it would be a waste of my time.
Unrelated? I don't follow your reasoning. Could you explain, please?
And that is precisely what the Book of Mormon is doing. It is spreading the good news of Jesus Christ as our Savior and Redeemer.
Perhaps that's because the Bible (at least as a collection of sacred writings and not as a "book" per se) has existed since the first Christians existed. Its authors were known and studied by the people of that time. The Book of Mormon was lost to the world for many centuries. It stands to reason that it would contain such an invitation. I'm really curious as to why this is such a source of concern to you. God is simply saying, "After you've read this, pray about it and ask me if it's true. I will reveal my answer to you by the power of the Holy Ghost." Why on earth does this raise a red flag for you? Don't you believe that God would answer your prayers?
And there are none in the Book of Mormon like that either. As a matter of fact, in the Book of Mormon, we're told that we must ask with faith in Christ. You can't have faith in Christ if you don't believe Him to be God's Son, and you can't believe Him to be God's Son if you don't believe in God. The Bible does tell us that if we lack wisdom, we should ask God for it and He will respond by giving us the wisdom we ask for. That's exactly what the Book of Mormon is doing.
Holy Cow! Neither do we!
Perhaps you would be so kind as to provide some examples of this?
Wow! Well, in your two readings of the book, you obviously weren't paying much attention to the words. On the other hand, you did manage to find some things that aren't even there -- such as a reference to the Celestial Kingdom. Very impressive!
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Jesus set me free!
So are you suggesting that authority can only be bestowed by another who already has authority? What is the authority you are talking about?
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Jesus set me free!
[FONT=Times New Roman, Arial]As the King of Righteousness, Melchizedek was the image of Gods Spirit. [/FONT]
Man is not inherently righteous and cannot be the King of Righteousness:
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (Romans 3:10)
And yet Christ was without sin:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (Colossians 1:15)
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: ([FONT=Times New Roman, Arial]Hebrews 1:3)[/FONT]
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Jesus set me free!
Hebrews 5
1For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. 3And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
Speaking of Christ:
24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
The Levitical (Aaronic) priesthood is no longer necessary because Christ has made an atonement once and for all.
11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Leviticus 17
And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, saying,
3What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
4And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
5To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the LORD.
6And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
7And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
8And thou shalt say unto them, Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers which sojourn among you, that offereth a burnt offering or sacrifice,
9And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer it unto the LORD; even that man shall be cut off from among his people.
10And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.
11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
In Exodus 28 and 29, Moses established the priesthood of Israel. It was reserved for the family of Aaron and the main purpose of these priests was to make an atonement for their own sins and the sins of the people with a blood sacrifice:
38Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.
39The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:
40And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering.
41And the other lamb thou shalt offer at even, and shalt do thereto according to the meat offering of the morning, and according to the drink offering thereof, for a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
42This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD: where I will meet you, to speak there unto thee.
43And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by my glory.
44And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office. (Exodus 29:38-44)
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Actually and contextually, it doesn't sound LDS at all. It sounds very Jewish. Considering that Ezekiel is writing from within the Babylonian captivity and predicting what is going to happen to the TWO KINGDOMS of the Jews (North and South or Israel and Judah). The sticks (call them boards, if you wish) represent those two kingdoms, not a book. Read on please.
Ezekiel 37: 21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1495643#_ftn1
As they say, context is everything. By merely reading the two subsequent verses, one can see that Ezekiel is NOT prophesying about a book, but about a soon to be re-united nation. AND if one reads on even a little further, they discover that the re-united nation will be ruled by King David.
Regardless of which translation one uses, it is always important to read the text in the context in which it was written.
Edward
Thanks for your response. However, this isn't referring to a book (or books). It is the predicition of the uniting of Israel and Judah) Please read on to verses 21 & 22.
Thanks again for your response.
Edward
Are you saying that the familiar spirit that Isaiah mentions is the Book of Mormon?
Edward
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So the Spirit of God can work through us, such as when a sermon is preached convincingly, but it can't work through Jesus?
It really sounds as if Hinckley was against critical reading and scholarship. His statement really sounds as if he wants to throw all that away and just sort of let the truth seep in through some kind of mythic osmosis.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Because, my dear Locky, The stories weren't written down, as we have them now, until after 650 b.c.e. Moses was a lot older than that.
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