Why God created people that are destined for Hell...

[Sententia]

Okay...

What if God didn't create each and every one of us, but created the first ones, then let things play out on their own? He created the original laws of nature, planted the original seeds of existence, then just sat back and let it all play out?

Would be funny. Like if I created an ant farm tomorrow. And just watched what happened. I dont speak their language or really know *** is going on but I am still all powerful by comparison... I smite some and others go on.

At the end I learn the ant language and read their memoirs... Why didnt I prevent this disease or do such and such. Sure I am much more powerful then the ants and their world but I still couldnt do anything about ant disease or make ant 123123 love ant 921222. Its just beyond me in ways that are ultimately unimportant to me. But if ant 123123 did mate with ant 921222 then it would have lead to super ant x00001 which was an ant beyond even my intelligence and power and I failed to recoginize and allow that then seriously what is the point of me anyways... Genesis... The threat of revelatations hehe....

 

[Runewolf1973]

In my opinion, there is no God. There is just energy and change, but because energy vibrates and is animate, it all has some form of "consciousness" or "awareness". No God, no divine intervention, all is Spirit and naturally existing. Nothing "supernatural".

 

[Comicaze247]

It's a counter to the argument that God created our wiring and all that.

I'm basically trying to throw out the possibility that God doesn't control us and never did because he was only present at the start; the very, very, very start. He made all the things and then let themselves play out. He knew how they would play out, but he has no control over how the human mind plays out or how it works.

Yes, but he has a Divine Plan, right? If he had no control over how the human mind plays out or how it works, how would he have a Divine Plan?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

If God knows all, then he already knew what we'd do and there'd be no sence in creating us!

Maybe the ones who are evil remind the others that they should behave differently.

 

[Comicaze247]

Maybe the ones who are evil remind the others that they should behave differently.

So the "all-loving God" purposely creates people just so they can go to Hell?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I am going to try and rephrase an argument here...

Knowledge of what is going to happen does not mean that what someone will do is being controlled. I guess it comes down to the definition of free will itself. It's all about choices. I don't see why God knowing what we are going to do makes him force us to do it. If you quiet your mind and listen to God he will guide you in the right direction. It is a choice of whether or not you want to submit to your conscience or not. He gives everyone the opportunity to choose right from wrong.

What good is free will if a person accidentally makes the wrong choice? People with limited knowledge (lack of omniscience) don't always make wise choices. Even Christians sometimes make wrong choices. Wisdom comes from God, but an atheist isn't going to ask God for it. Are you suggesting that all consciences are the same? I'm just curious because everyone is condemned until they come to Christ, but are they aware of being condemned? Some people seem to not have a clue.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

So the "all-loving God" purposely creates people just so they can go to Hell?

"God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent..."

He has provided a way for men to escape the penalty of sin.

 

[Comicaze247]

What good is free will if a person accidentally makes the wrong choice? People with limited knowledge (lack of omniscience) don't always make wise choices. Even Christians sometimes make wrong choices. Wisdom comes from God, but an atheist isn't going to ask God for it.

So you'd rather not take responsibility for your choices and just say God made them all for you?

Are you suggesting that all consciences are the same?

Are you suggesting that only those who commit themselves to the Abrahamic God have higher consciences?

 

[Comicaze247]

"God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent..."

He has provided a way for men to escape the penalty of sin.

Yes, he has provided a way, but he already knows what they will do, right? So what's the point of providing that way?

And if they're going to make their own choices, are all their choices part of his plan?

And if all choices are part of his plan, then part of his plan is to send people to hell, right?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

So you'd rather not take responsibility for your choices and just say God made them all for you?

No.

Are you suggesting that only those who commit themselves to the Abrahamic God have higher consciences?

I was asking a question.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Yes, he has provided a way, but he already knows what they will do, right? So what's the point of providing that way?

Because man is sinful and can't save Himself.

And if they're going to make their own choices, are all their choices part of his plan?

And if all choices are part of his plan, then part of his plan is to send people to hell, right?

His plan allows for some to spend eternity separated from Him. It's interesting that humans put so many other humans in prison.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Because man is sinful and can't save Himself.

...Because of the restrictions that God created for salvation. We cannot save ourselves because God will not allow us to, as he has created a system, and allows no deviation from it.

His plan allows for some to spend eternity separated from Him.

Some, or most?

What's the point in even creating the people that God knows will surely go to Hell? In what way is that loving, or compassionate?

 

[Comicaze247]

No.

"Unclear" does not even begin to explain that answer. Perhaps you didn't understand. Do you take responsibility for your own actions or is God solely responsible for them?

I was asking a question.

And I countered with another question. What I mean is, if you are speaking from that standpoint, then your question doesn't deserve an answer. But just so you have no excuse not to answer my questions, I will provide my own answer. I believe that everyone has a conscience. Only the senses of right and wrong differ.

Because man is sinful and can't save Himself.

As has been circularly stated already. The question still stands (because you didn't even answer it): what is the point of free will if we can't do anything for ourselves anyway?

His plan allows for some to spend eternity separated from Him. It's interesting that humans put so many other humans in prison.

So putting people in prison for crimes that we did not know they would commit is the same as God damning people to hell for eternity for crimes that he knew they were going to commit even before they were born?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

...Because of the restrictions that God created for salvation. We cannot save ourselves because God will not allow us to, as he has created a system, and allows no deviation from it.

Why are only some people accepted into Harvard? Why are there any requirements for anything? Why do people keep haviing babies?

...Some, or most?

What's the point in even creating the people that God knows will surely go to Hell? In what way is that loving, or compassionate?

Who said that God must be compassionate or loving to everyone? Would you be compassionate to a serial killer?

 

[Comicaze247]

Why are only some people accepted into Harvard?
Why are there any requirements for anything? Why do people keep haviing babies?

What do those questions have to do with his statement at all?

But just to humor you, I'll answer the one question that actually had any relevance to the discussion.
Harvard didn't create everyone, so they don't know people's merits until they apply. Only then do they allow or deny them attendance.
"God" apparently knows all people because he created them all, so he knows all their merits (or lack thereof) already. Yet he doesn't accept everyone into heaven because they don't meet the standards to enter. But he made them the way they are, so he didn't allow them in even before they had a chance to apply.

Who said that God must be compassionate or loving to everyone? Would you be compassionate to a serial killer?

Doesn't it state somewhere in the Bible that all of mankind are his children and that he is all knowing and all loving?

And also, if he's not going to be compassionate to everyone and some people to hell, why did he create those people in the first place? That's what this thread is about.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

"Unclear" does not even begin to explain that answer. Perhaps you didn't understand. Do you take responsibility for your own actions or is God solely responsible for them?

Dunno. But He has been better to me than I deserve.

And I countered with another question. What I mean is, if you are speaking from that standpoint, then your question doesn't deserve an answer.

But I didn't address my question to you.

But just so you have no excuse not to answer my questions, I will provide my own answer. I believe that everyone has a conscience. Only the senses of right and wrong differ.

How did that happen?

As has been circularly stated already. The question still stands (because you didn't even answer it): what is the point of free will if we can't do anything for ourselves anyway?

I don't know.

So putting people in prison for crimes that we did not know they would commit is the same as God damning people to hell for eternity for crimes that he knew they were going to commit even before they were born?

Well, if someone doesn't love God, he probably isn't going to sit around worrying about hell. How can a person hate what God does if he doesn't believe that God would do it anyway?

 

[Comicaze247]

Dunno. But He has been better to me than I deserve.

You don't know if you take responsibility for your own actions?

But I didn't address my question to you.

Fair enough. Good deflection tactics.

How did that happen?

You really have to be clearer with your responses.
I'm going to assume that you're asking how we all have differing senses of right and wrong. It's because we were all raised differently (common sense), but it's completely unrelated to the topic of the thread.

I don't know.

Alright, I'll ask you the questions separately:
Do you believe in free will?
Do you believe in the Divine Plan?
Do you believe God creates everyone?

Well, if someone doesn't love God, he probably isn't going to sit around worrying about hell. How can a person hate what God does if he doesn't believe that God would do it anyway?

I stared back and forth from my question to your response for literally 5 minutes to figure out what they had to do with each other.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

You don't know if you take responsibility for your own actions?

I'm very sleepy right now.

You really have to be clearer with your responses.
I'm going to assume that you're asking how we all have differing senses of right and wrong. It's because we were all raised differently (common sense), but it's completely unrelated to the topic of the thread.

But even members of the same family can't agree on what's right or wrong. What does it mean?

Alright, I'll ask you the questions separately:
Do you believe in free will?

I believe that one's choices depend on who or what he is listening to. His will is limited by his own nature.

Do you believe in the Divine Plan?

What is the Divine Plan that you are referring to? Can you describe it in detail?

Do you believe God creates everyone?

Yes, but I don't believe the person exists before he is conceived in the womb.

I'm going to get some shut-eye.

 

[Comicaze247]

I'm very sleepy right now.

Fair enough.

But even members of the same family can't agree on what's right or wrong. What does it mean?

We all have differing experiences affecting our views. Ever hear of the generation gap?

I believe that one's choices depend on who or what he is listening to. His will is limited by his own nature.

I agree to an extent. However, some people can look beyond what others influence them to do and literally be themselves.

What is the Divine Plan that you are referring to? Can you describe it in detail?

What I meant was, do you believe that "God" has a Divine Plan? Nobody can describe it, because nobody knows the plan, just that "God" has one. Judging by your title, you're a Christian (I was formerly Catholic), so you should know this.

Yes, but I don't believe the person exists before he is conceived in the womb.

Fair enough.
Now what I was trying to ask is, if "God" created us and gave us true free will, how would he have a Divine Plan?

 

[Beaudreaux]

It's a counter to the argument that God created our wiring and all that.

I'm basically trying to throw out the possibility that God doesn't control us and never did because he was only present at the start; the very, very, very start. He made all the things and then let themselves play out. He knew how they would play out, but he has no control over how the human mind plays out or how it works.

The wiring or the "how" of it does not matter. What matters is that he knows with certainty every action that you will take. Despite what you may feel, if he KNOWS your future actions, then that's what they will be. You cannot take any action that differs. Being able to take only one action is not a choice.