Why Has Israel Killed 40,000 Civilians In Gaza?

[Ignatius A]

I have a great idea,let’s send a woke “queers for Palestine” peace commission,if anyone could find a peaceful solution surely it them.

They could say Hamas you terms if you don’t hand over the hostages we’ll set up tents and roadblocks on your rubble and spray orange stuff all over your holy places,then if they survive Hamas they could threaten Israel the same way,if they survive the first part lol.

Yeah i bet hamas would acquiesce in a minute.

 

[anotherneil]

I was under the impression you had some but you didn’t but that’s fine.

Well, then that circles us back to this question:

Why Has Israel Killed 40,000 Civilians In Gaza?

You're not aware that hamas claims to have no problem with Jews it's "Zionist" they don't like? Maybe read up on hamas before your next post. Again, what does that have to do with anything I've stated?

www.religiousforums.com

Sources for what?

You didn't answer the question, yet you jump to the conclusion that I don't have sources - you don't have any basis for concluding this.

 

[England my lionheart]

Yeah i bet hamas would acquiesce in a minute.

Definitely lol.

 

[Ignatius A]

Well, then that circles us back to this question:

Why Has Israel Killed 40,000 Civilians In Gaza?

You're not aware that hamas claims to have no problem with Jews it's "Zionist" they don't like? Maybe read up on hamas before your next post. Again, what does that have to do with anything I've stated?

www.religiousforums.com

Sources for what?

You didn't answer the question, yet you jump to the conclusion that I don't have sources - you don't have any basis for concluding this.

That's a very easy question to answer, because hamas has publicly and explicitly stated their goal is to eliminate "Zionists" and Israel from the face of the earth. Also because the vast majority of Palestinians support Hamas and their oct 7 attack on Israel.

 

[Yerda]

I have a great idea,let’s send a woke “queers for Palestine” peace commission,if anyone could find a peaceful solution surely it them.

They could say Hamas you TERFS if you don’t hand over the hostages we’ll set up tents and roadblocks on your rubble and spray orange stuff all over your holy places,then if they survive Hamas they could threaten Israel the same way,if they survive the first part lol.

Picking on the queers? How novel. About time somebody gave them some abuse...

 

[Ignatius A]

Picking on the queers? How novel. About time somebody gave them some abuse...

Stop the drama nonsense. The point is there are fools and not just "queers" who protest for Hamas but Hamas would hate those people lived in Gaza. We have leftists of all stripes screeching about trump yet they protest for Hamas as if Hamas is their friend. They imagine they share some "struggle" with hamas but they are only useful idiots to hamas.

 

[England my lionheart]

Well, then that circles us back to this question:

Why Has Israel Killed 40,000 Civilians In Gaza?

You're not aware that hamas claims to have no problem with Jews it's "Zionist" they don't like? Maybe read up on hamas before your next post. Again, what does that have to do with anything I've stated?

www.religiousforums.com

Sources for what?

You didn't answer the question, yet you jump to the conclusion that I don't have sources - you don't have any basis for concluding this.

Whatever the true number is Hamas have put their people in harms way,purposely,the Palestinians are proxy Donkeys for Iran and Hezbollah,since 1933,inspired by the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt there has only been one aim,the destruction of Israel.

Hasan Al Banna founder of the Muslim Brotherhood.

“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it".

“last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews”.

Six wars and infitadas later,this is why civilians die.

 

[England my lionheart]

Picking on the queers? How novel. About time somebody gave them some abuse...

It wasn’t actually,I was pointing to the fact that people are highly critical of Israel but have zero meaningful ideas of alternatives.

 

[England my lionheart]

Stop the drama nonsense. The point is there are fools and not just "queers" who protest for Hamas but Hamas would hate those people lived in Gaza. We have leftists of all stripes screeching about trump yet they protest for Hamas as if Hamas is their friend. They imagine they share some "struggle" with hamas but they are only useful idiots to hamas.

Exactly,Hamas love this.

 

[Yerda]

Stop the drama nonsense. The point is there are fools and not just "queers" who protest for Hamas but Hamas would hate those people lived in Gaza. We have leftists of all stripes screeching about trump yet they protest for Hamas as if Hamas is their friend. They imagine they share some "struggle" with hamas but they are only useful idiots to hamas.

Any leftists who thinks the share a struggle with Hamas is delusional. Hamas have much more in common with the right.

 

[anotherneil]

That's a very easy question to answer, because hamas has publicly and explicitly stated their goal is to eliminate "Zionists" and Israel from the face of the earth. Also because the vast majority of Palestinians support Hamas and their oct 7 attack on Israel.

I don't see how this political propaganda narrative has anything to do with my question.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Stop the drama nonsense. The point is there are fools and not just "queers" who protest for Hamas but Hamas would hate those people lived in Gaza. We have leftists of all stripes screeching about trump yet they protest for Hamas as if Hamas is their friend. They imagine they share some "struggle" with hamas but they are only useful idiots to hamas.

I think the point has been made that protesters aren't protesting "for Hamas," but are protesting against innocent people dying and suffering. While folks may disagree with the protests, the general theme of the protest (while I concede there may be others with more nefarious intentions) is people ought not kill innocent people needlessly not that Hamas is right or the social ideals of the society are just.

 

[anotherneil]

Whatever the true number is Hamas have put their people in harms way,purposely,the Palestinians are proxy Donkeys for Iran and Hezbollah,since 1933,inspired by the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt there has only been one aim,the destruction of Israel.

Hasan Al Banna founder of the Muslim Brotherhood.

“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it".

“last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews”.

Six wars and infitadas later,this is why civilians die.

If you want to get into this then let both sides tell their sides of the story, directly, not as someone presenting both sides "for" them; that's not objective. Due diligence and critical thinking call for being skeptical and mindful of what some anonymous individual on some forum is pitching, which frankly means that I don't trust you.

I'm not interested in entertaining such political propaganda narratives. As far as I know, a bunch of outsiders from Europe barged into that Southern Levant region about 3 quarters of a century ago, and are apparently trying to violently destroy and cleanse the indigenous population there, so I don't see how I have any entitlement or reason for criticizing the indigenous population there for not wanting to be cleansed and destroyed. There's no just cause for defending such behavior and actions, and I'm not a supporter of aggression

My focus isn't even really on the Jewish people and their descendants who came from Europe following WW2. I see this as a case of European imperialism, and the Jewish people who came from Europe are just pawns and tools being exploited & taken advantage of by such imperialism. I see both European Jews and their descendants, and the indigenous people of that Southern Levant area, as essentially victims of European imperialism being pitted against each other.

Consider that after WW 1 the British empire had control of the region (Mandatory Palestine) until Israel founders declared it as their state, and did you know that European monarchs such as the kings of Spain have claimed the title King of Jerusalem?

https://www.casareal.es/ES/Documents/Acts_Abdication_Proclamation.pdf

The reason I have a problem with the idea of my own country (the US) being involved in this cleansing and destruction is not just because it's plainly unjustifiable violent aggression, but mainly because I see it as supporting European imperialism. It has nothing to do with a notion of supporting Iran or Hamas or whoever is supposedly trying to kill Jews or destroy Israel; I don't support anything of the sort, at all.

It seems like this political propaganda narrative is one sided; this and the false choice narrative that you either support Israel or you support Iran and Hamas seem like diversions to prevent any focus on European imperialism.

That's my opinion, maybe I'm wrong, but if I am wrong and you want to show me that I'm wrong, then please do so with a complete set of facts from neutral, objective sources. It's something I'm currently exploring, and the only reason I bring it up in a thread like this, at this point, is because the circumstances somehow seem to necessitate that I do so.

 

[Flankerl]

At the same time the population of the other side sits comfortably in restaurants and film theaters, students take lectures in their universities, and watches their football clubs play out their matches (including hosting European sides in UCL and UEL), in relative safety.

You are literally describing any population whose country is at war where the war is not on their territory.
By that logic the US and Canada during WW2 were what exactly?
Did Kansas and Manitoba need to be bombed for these two nations to be at war?

I can sort of point to quite a lot of places in Israel that have been attacked over the past 11 months.
Or doesn't that matter simply because Israel protects its citizens from these attacks?
Is it Israels fault that Hamas does not protect its people?

1. This isn't a war between nation states. It is a conflict between the most developed and heavily armed state in the region and the administering organisation of a stateless and defenceless population that has been either occupied or blockaded by the developed and heavily armed state for decades. This is people who've spent their lives in an open prison now being corralled from place to place while a its jailers drop bombs all over the yard, including repeatedly on hospitals, refugee camps that they've been chased into, and schools.

I can't really remember many prisons where they jailers never even entered the prison and the prisoners organised absolutely everything themselves.
Can you explain how this jail has two different jailers?
Also where is the section in any law that says nations have to open their borders to hostile elements?

But The IDF is responsible for killing innocent civilians, and nothing Hama does justifies that, just as nothing justifies Hamas' killing of innocent civilians. If your child was molested, do you think becoming a child molester yourself would be the appropriate response? Of course not, now swap molesting with killing.

I agree.
Which is why you surely also agree that the rightful government of Germany and its rightful borders need to be re-established.
Nothing the Nazis did justified killing and expelling innocent German civilians.
The regime change that happened between 1945 and 1949 was obviously completely illegal.

It has to. You'd be wrong if it wasn't.
We have to stand for what is right.

Now now, let's not jump to unreasonable conclusions. It could just be that they believe they stop mattering once they become brown children.

So once again: Most Israelis and Israeli Jews are "brown".
This isn't a conflict between white and brown, no matter how much you Americans want it to be that way.

 

[Yerda]

You are literally describing any population whose country is at war where the war is not on their territory.
By that logic the US and Canada during WW2 were what exactly?
Did Kansas and Manitoba need to be bombed for these two nations to be at war?

I can sort of point to quite a lot of places in Israel that have been attacked over the past 11 months.
Or doesn't that matter simply because Israel protects its citizens from these attacks?
Is it Israels fault that Hamas does not protect its people?

Ok, that's a reasonable point.

But we are still talking about a heavily armed state dropping bombs on a stateless and defenceless people, right next door, who have been under their occupation of blockade for decades. This is quite different from the world wars, which people keep pointing to as examples of huge civilian losses. Though, you're right it is similar in some respects to wars waged overseas by some countries (not that those tend to be good examples of virtuous military conduct).

It is also not entirely wild to say that killing tens of thousands of people as collateral damage in order to kill the people who are a threat is fundamentally evil conduct. Bad things are still bad things even when Israel does them. I know why people with a connection to Israel might wish to deny this but it doesn't change it. Doing whatever needs to be done to achieve objectives sounds real brave until you see that "whatever" is filling morgues with children.

But sure, it is right to blame Hamas for what Hamas does, and blame Israel for what Israel does, imo. And it is right to point out the difficult position Israel is in compared to other countries involved in violent conflict (and also acknowledge that Russia, the UK or US, for example, would likely have been just as bat**** crazy if they had hostile lunatics on their border). I would say that bat**** crazy responses don't tend to work out that well in the end for anyone. If at the end of this current rampage Hamas is completely gone and lots more Gazans aren't of the mind to do whatever they can to kill more Israelis I'll be very surprised.

If you were a Gazan, do you think this would make you more or less likely to support more violence?

I can't really remember many prisons where they jailers never even entered the prison and the prisoners organised absolutely everything themselves.
Can you explain how this jail has two different jailers?
Also where is the section in any law that says nations have to open their borders to hostile elements?

There's plenty of material out there from people who've lived through the past decade or so, Gazans and outside observers of many nationalities, who described the conditions as like being in an open prison. If you want to disregard this because it upsets you, feel free. If it was some other country doing this you'd maybe be a bit more sympathetic.

 

[Flankerl]

Ok, that's a reasonable point.

But we are still talking about a heavily armed state dropping bombs on a stateless and defenceless people, right next door, who have been under their occupation of blockade for decades. This is quite different from the world wars, which people keep pointing to as examples of huge civilian losses. Though, you're right it is similar in some respects to wars waged overseas by some countries (not that those tend to be good examples of virtuous military conduct).

It is also not entirely wild to say that killing tens of thousands of people as collateral damage in order to kill the people who are a threat is fundamentally evil conduct. Bad things are still bad things even when Israel does them. I know why people with a connection to Israel might wish to deny this but it doesn't change it. Doing whatever needs to be done to achieve objectives sounds real brave until you see that "whatever" is filling morgues with children.

But sure, it is right to blame Hamas for what Hamas does, and blame Israel for what Israel does, imo. And it is right to point out the difficult position Israel is in compared to other countries involved in violent conflict (and also acknowledge that Russia, the UK or US, for example, would likely have been just as bat**** crazy if they had hostile lunatics on their border). I would say that bat**** crazy responses don't tend to work out that well in the end for anyone. If at the end of this current rampage Hamas is completely gone and lots more Gazans aren't of the mind to do whatever they can to kill more Israelis I'll be very surprised.

As per UN it is completely normal that 9 in 10 people who die or are injured during war are civilians.

Ninety Per Cent of War-Time Casualties Are Civilians, Speakers Stress, Pressing Security Council to Fulfil Responsibility, Protect Innocent People in Conflicts | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases

With civilians accounting for nearly 90 per cent of war-time casualties and humanitarians threatened with arrest for providing aid to “the enemy”, the Security Council simply must do more to ensure the protection of innocent people caught amid the conflicts raging around the world, experts from...

press.un.org

Be against that and not a war where that isn't even the case.

If you were a Gazan, do you think this would make you more or less likely to support more violence?

If I were a Gazan the chances would be quite high to support the global eradication of the Jews.

Nah I don't want to be that.

Same as I wouldn't want to be a German during WW2, Chinese Communist during the cultural revolution or a Hutu in 1994 Rwanda.

But then again there have been Gazans who spoke out against Hamas.
By numbers alone they could take care of Hamas themselves.

There's plenty of material out there from people who've lived through the past decade or so, Gazans and outside observers of many nationalities, who described the conditions as like being in an open prison. If you want to disregard this because it upsets you, feel free. If it was some other country doing this you'd maybe be a bit more sympathetic.

That's great.
Israel disengaged from the Gaza Strip in August 2005.
Immediately afterwards there was no blockade.
Then Hamas and PIJ started to fire rockets and mortars towards Israel.
The blockade then began in July 2007 after Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip and threw Fatah members literally from buildings.

It also hasn't been a complete blockade with nothing going in or out.
Gazans routinely used Israeli hospitals, among them the families of high ranking Hamas members.
And obviously all the humanitarian aid.

Do I really need to explain the purpose of the restrictions after 7.10?
I would've thought it to be self-explanatory.
It's also what they had planned for their "Great March of Return" in 2018-19.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Israel disengaged from the Gaza Strip in August 2005.
Immediately afterwards there was no blockade..

Isn't it time to try to solve issues, rather than the continual sniping at each other?

Do you think the solution is a partisan govt. that continues to demonize 'Ishmaelites' ?
..because I don't think the world will accept that .. in the long run.

..so what is the long-term plan? .. please do tell.

(Naturally, I don't believe that there is an alternative credible plan .. we're all in for a rough ride,
regardless of faith)

 

[England my lionheart]

If you want to get into this then let both sides tell their sides of the story, directly, not as someone presenting both sides "for" them; that's not objective. Due diligence and critical thinking call for being skeptical and mindful of what some anonymous individual on some forum is pitching, which frankly means that I don't trust you.

I'm not interested in entertaining such political propaganda narratives. As far as I know, a bunch of outsiders from Europe barged into that Southern Levant region about 3 quarters of a century ago, and are apparently trying to violently destroy and cleanse the indigenous population there, so I don't see how I have any entitlement or reason for criticizing the indigenous population there for not wanting to be cleansed and destroyed. There's no just cause for defending such behavior and actions, and I'm not a supporter of aggression

My focus isn't even really on the Jewish people and their descendants who came from Europe following WW2. I see this as a case of European imperialism, and the Jewish people who came from Europe are just pawns and tools being exploited & taken advantage of by such imperialism. I see both European Jews and their descendants, and the indigenous people of that Southern Levant area, as essentially victims of European imperialism being pitted against each other.

Consider that after WW 1 the British empire had control of the region (Mandatory Palestine) until Israel founders declared it as their state, and did you know that European monarchs such as the kings of Spain have claimed the title King of Jerusalem?

https://www.casareal.es/ES/Documents/Acts_Abdication_Proclamation.pdf

The reason I have a problem with the idea of my own country (the US) being involved in this cleansing and destruction is not just because it's plainly unjustifiable violent aggression, but mainly because I see it as supporting European imperialism. It has nothing to do with a notion of supporting Iran or Hamas or whoever is supposedly trying to kill Jews or destroy Israel; I don't support anything of the sort, at all.

It seems like this political propaganda narrative is one sided; this and the false choice narrative that you either support Israel or you support Iran and Hamas seem like diversions to prevent any focus on European imperialism.

That's my opinion, maybe I'm wrong, but if I am wrong and you want to show me that I'm wrong, then please do so with a complete set of facts from neutral, objective sources. It's something I'm currently exploring, and the only reason I bring it up in a thread like this, at this point, is because the circumstances somehow seem to necessitate that I do so.

I suggest you research it yourself,it’s not difficult these days,you could start with the demise of the Ottoman Empire,the French and British mandates,the Balfour declaration for some background,Hassan Husain and the Muslim Brotherhood,the PLO and the Hamas charter original and revised edition is a good start.

I’ve had a busy day in the real world and not prepared to do it for you.

 

[anotherneil]

I suggest you research it yourself,it’s not difficult these days,you could start with the demise of the Ottoman Empire,the French and British mandates,the Balfour declaration for some background,Hassan Husain and the Muslim Brotherhood,the PLO and the Hamas charter original and revised edition is a good start.

I’ve had a busy day in the real world and not prepared to do it for you.

Yes, thank you; as I said, it's something I'm currently exploring.

I hope the rest of your day is relaxing for you.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Hamas has for decades forced children to attend pro-war schools. It easily could have 200,000 trained fighters. 40,000 seems relatively small. I'm surprised that you think its a large number relative to 1 million. Perhaps the reason its relatively small compared to the 1 million inhabitants is that Israel always announces its attacks beforehand, so that people can clear out.

The population of Gaza is about 2.3 million, so 40,000 is around 1.73% of the strip's entire population. To put this into perspective, an equivalent number of Americans relative to the population of the US, estimated at 333 million, is 5.76 million.

How is this "relatively small"? Imagine if someone looked at an equivalent number of civilians killed in any other country and said something like that. Those people weren't mere statistics; many of us elsewhere knew many of them—they were our neighbors, friends, classmates, and coworkers. Entire families have been wiped out, many of them spanning more than one generation.

Understandable. I'm sorry I presumed this was common knowledge, since I posted about it elsewhere. Here is some information about it made years ago.
"https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/11/05/unrwa-palestine-israel-refugees-united-states-funding-corruption-education/"

A thriving Israel is an embarrassment to all non-capitalist, all non-democratic, all Islamic governments. This comprises the majority of the UN governments. Israel has stellar performance as a small country relative to those around it which are mostly monarchies. Its existence is a black eye to Islam, too, in my opinion. Others are not able to compete, mostly because they believe in monarchies (caliphs), believe that the wealthy class is righteous (because the wealth is a sign of it), believe sharia is necessary (but the successful west and Israel prove its not) and believe that all Jews must eventually be eliminated (though not immediately).

The beliefs you listed are far from universal among Muslims, and there's no belief in mainstream Islam that the wealthy are any more or less righteous than other people. I have lived my entire life among Muslims and never heard anyone express such a belief either. Also, most Muslim countries are capitalist, especially the Gulf ones, and while Islam doesn't forbid monarchy, it doesn't forbid an electoral system of government either.

A lot of the statements I have seen about Muslims and Palestinians (whether Muslim or otherwise) over the years seem to me to have been said about them in one source or another, not by any representative number thereof. Many successful and prosperous countries exist, and the vast majority of them are barely on the radar of the average Muslim. Not that non-Muslim supporters of Palestinian civilians don't exist, but even if one limits the scope of the assertion (that the objections to the IDF's actions in Gaza are related to Israel's prosperity) to Muslims, it doesn't hold water when examined more closely.

The composition of the UN is public knowledge. 49 non-democratic states out of 123. Many governments are threatened by western ideas and don't like the USA, which supports Israel (which supports western ideals). If not the majority then a large fraction of the 123 states are embarrassed by the success of the American experiment but more by Israel's success. These governments would benefit from embarrassing western ideas. Combine that with the many that tout Islam and its promise to eventually kill all Jews. That is a large portion of the UN.

I have seen nothing that indicates that the vast majority of the opposition to the current bombing of Gaza is due to anything besides opposition to killing tens of thousands of civilians. No one appreciates seeing their people being killed or maimed, nor do they appreciate seeing countries like the US and Germany talk about "democracy" and "human rights" in different contexts while supplying many of the weapons that have been used to massacre tens of thousands of civilians and providing financial and geopolitical support for such actions. The opposition is a natural reaction that anyone in the same position would have and any country doing what the US has been doing would receive.

There are many Western countries that are either viewed generally favorably or are barely noticed in many of the countries where negative sentiments toward the US are widespread. A few examples are Norway, Iceland, and Romania. There's just no reason for most people to have ill feelings toward those countries, whereas the US has an extensive history of destructive and hostile interventionism in Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East, and it is consequently seen far more negatively by far more people. This is not a sentiment that is remotely unique to a subset of Muslims, and I don't see what said sentiment has to do with trying to embarrass Western values or ideals—unless those are synonymous with support for bombing of civilians, but I know they are not.

The UN reports statistics about a fight about which it has a conflict of interest. It openly states that it obtains its statistics from Hamas. BBC, Al Jazeera also both have employed Hamas agents as journalists. This is the same Hamas that kills people for simply disagreeing. Many statistics are also supplied by Hamas. The OP statistics are sourceless, not provided. They are probably from Hamas, but the OP does not say.

Here are two posts I posted about it before:

UN Experts Express Alarm over "Credible Allegations" of Sexual Assault and Rape Targeting Palestinian Women and Committed by the IDF

The descriptions are absolutely sickening So, a sickening tale is "credible"? That's it? That's all it takes? Wow. That's fertile ground for propaganda and emotional manipulation.

www.religiousforums.com

S Africa Makes Case: Israel Committing Genocide

Yes, the UN. The majority on the earth represented within a group. They are all bad and israel is good, right? babble on.

www.religiousforums.com

The death tolls reported by the Gaza Health Ministry in past conflicts have been verified and found overall reliable by various sources and observers. I mentioned this in a previous post, so I'll quote that part of the post here:

[...]

In past wars with Israel, the Gaza health ministry's death tolls were mostly in line with counts by the United Nations and Israel, though there have been discrepancies in the past with Israel on the numbers of civilians vs. militants killed.

An analysis published in the Lancet medical journal in December found that Gaza's health ministry has "historically reported accurate mortality data," with discrepancies between 1% and roughly 3% when compared with U.N. analysis of deaths in previous conflicts. The study found "no evidence of inflated rates" in the current war and noted that difficulties in obtaining accurate death counts "should not be interpreted as intentionally misreported data."

Gaza's death toll now exceeds 30,000. Here's why it's an incomplete count

[...]

Also, one of the patterns I keep seeing in discussions about the war on Gaza is that acknowledgement of one warring party's excesses or atrocities is seen by some people as support for the other warring party, not as mere opposition to killing civilians regardless of their nationality or religion. (Just to be clear, I'm not talking about you or saying you're doing this; I'm talking generally.) Hamas has committed atrocities and murdered civilians. The IDF has committed atrocities and murdered civilians. These two statements can both be true simultaneously, and I doubt peace will be achieved unless both—Hamas and the Israeli government, not Palestinian or Israeli civilians—are held accountable for what they have done.