BrasenWall
Member
So InGodWeTrust
You say our new deal has the same law. Does that include the sabbath and if not why?
You say our new deal has the same law. Does that include the sabbath and if not why?
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Why have Christians forgotten the fourth Commandment?
- Thread starter d.n.irvin
- Start date
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
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Have you ever heard about the Golden Rule: "Not to do unto others what we would not like they did unto us?" That's the whole Law and the Prophets. The rest is commentary.
Ben )(
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
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So, you have a new and better sacrifice? Whose sacrifice? Thousands of Jews were sacrificed by being crucified by the Romans in the very same fashion Jesus was. Before, during and after Jesus. Whose sacrifice are your talking about?
Oh! So, what motivates you to accept Jesus' sacrifice is the promise of eternal life?
What an autruistic reason to exercise one's faith! That's conditional loyalty. How about loyalty to the Covenant without the condition of eternal life? Think it through!
Ben :sarcastic
InGodWeTrust
Member
I find no indication otherwise. (short answer)
This is a thread about the Sabbath and I would not be dragging out the old Law unless I was defending it.
Let me guess, everyone on this thread is against it. Sorry but I have not gotten very far in reading the previous posts because I find them hard to understand, as in if they are for or against. They seem to be making some kind of argument but I can not figure out to what end.
I am not an expert on the topic of forums (only been seriously posting on forums for about nine months) but I do not think people post on threads about the sabbath unless they have a definite opinion about it. People do not change their minds but drop off after being repeatedly frustrated with the stubbornness of their fellow posters. So, you can go to one forum and you can find what looks like a bunch of Christians in the process of converting to some form of Judaism. You could go to another forum and find a bunch of anti-nomians. I do not expect to convert anyone despite the fact that I have switched sides at least twice, during my lifetime.
Anyway, I take the subject seriously and am happy to gain more understanding of the whole concept of there being a Law handed down by God.
InGodWeTrust
Member
I was reading BrazenWall's commenting on the Book of Hebrews and he was saying something about someone saying that it was written for Jews. The whole thing seems rather esoteric to me and I think it would have been understandable to the specific person who the author was addressing this letter to. I find it difficult because of how far removed we are from the world that person lived in.
People love to use this book because they can use it to argue points, as a source for proof texts that are hard to refute, by virtue of the difficulty of understanding it, in the first place. So, regardless of my personal view of the Book, I find myself forced to study it.
That nice little piece (the new and better, rant) is a result of my latest investigation into it and I am stating what the point was that the author of Hebrews was trying to make. It does not necessarily reflect my own personal beliefs, just what I believe that the writer believed.(but in my own form of valley speak, or whatever)
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mikmik
Member
Scuba Pete wrote; The Old Law has faded away, and only the Law of Christ exists: Love each other.... What counts? Not your law but becoming a new creation.... It's amazing how the NT which is so devoted to FREEDOM from the law should inspire so many of you to such legalism.
So, you are not a sinner then?
If you are relying on YOUR understanding of the law,...
And you are not relying on yours??
then you have no room for the Spirit. Without the Spirit you can not understand the importance of a complete and utter rejection of the old law.
Without the Spirit, you can't understand the importance of keeping God's commandments,, If God and His Son wanted us to reject them,, They sure did a lousy at conveying that message to us, and I mean lousy!
Matt 19.17So He said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 14.15If you love Me, keep My commandments.
John 14.21He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.
John 15.10If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Fathers commandments and abide in His love.
1 John 2.3Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 John 2.4He who says, I know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 3.22And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
1 John 5.2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
This list gose on and on!
mik
So, you are not a sinner then?
If you are relying on YOUR understanding of the law,...
And you are not relying on yours??
then you have no room for the Spirit. Without the Spirit you can not understand the importance of a complete and utter rejection of the old law.
Without the Spirit, you can't understand the importance of keeping God's commandments,, If God and His Son wanted us to reject them,, They sure did a lousy at conveying that message to us, and I mean lousy!
Matt 19.17So He said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 14.15If you love Me, keep My commandments.
John 14.21He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.
John 15.10If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Fathers commandments and abide in His love.
1 John 2.3Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 John 2.4He who says, I know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 3.22And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
1 John 5.2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
This list gose on and on!
mik
mikmik
Member
Yes, I know, and you are correct, and I stated that Paul said that. And I stated..
The original Greek work for end (Christ is the end of the Law) is telos. Telos literally means "The aim or end purpose of a thing, goal" example.. You would say to what end will you keep doing that,, and the answer is until some goal or purpose is obtained. So Paul saying that Christ is the (halting, dead end, no more law) end of the law, but also saying; do we void the law through faith, certainly not; and the doers of the law will be justified (and this list goes on!) would not make sense at all, quite a contradictions,, big time. But if you realize that it says that Christ is the end goal or purpose of the law, you realize that Jesus was perfect, perfectly righteous, and we should strive to become just like Him.
I was trying to give you a little insight into the Greek word used there and it's real definition... that is fact. I don't need to interpret it at all. There are other Greek words for end which mean a 'completion or fulfillment', but those were not used,.. the word meaning 'end goal or purpose' was used, for a reason. I follow the law with the goal of being Christ-like in my heart. Christ is the end of the law, I believe that, that is why I follow the law,, just as He did as He did when he walked the earth,, because I want to be as much like Him as I possible can.
Man I missed a lot while I was gone!! Everyone went crazy!
mik
astarath
Well-Known Member
Matt 5:18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Christ's own teaching from the mount concerning the place and importance of following the law
Christ's own teaching from the mount concerning the place and importance of following the law
mikmik
Member
Scuba Pete wrote; Sorry I completely missed this earlier. Yes. Sure I don't know that any scripture is perfect. While it was inspired by God, it was written by man...
Hold the phone... You are quoting scripture to back your theories about the Sabbath and the Law... and yet you don't have faith in the validity and accuracy of them???
What???
I quote them because I have 110% faith in them and God's awesome ability to inspire a human, created by Him, to write down the correct words. Yes, when man took it upon himself to translate to the other languages, and change words to better fit what they believe the meaning of God to be, there we have inaccuracies. But going back to the original texts, FAITH in God tells me that they are correct.
That Book is the only real physical proof that we have today that can provide insight into what God's will is, and what His love is about. For God to inspire an innacurate scripture would feel almost like a cruel joke,, we would be hopeless.
To continue to quote scripture that you do not believe is accurate to prove your point is hypocrisy. Just say, I can prove Santa isn't real, because the Easter bunny told me so... and I don't believe in him either!
To believe that you hold the knowledge in your head needed to discern between the accurate scriptures (the ones that back your theories) and the inaccurate ones (the ones that don't???).. reminds me of something... Rom 1.22 Professing to be wise, they became fools...
mikki
Hold the phone... You are quoting scripture to back your theories about the Sabbath and the Law... and yet you don't have faith in the validity and accuracy of them???
What???
I quote them because I have 110% faith in them and God's awesome ability to inspire a human, created by Him, to write down the correct words. Yes, when man took it upon himself to translate to the other languages, and change words to better fit what they believe the meaning of God to be, there we have inaccuracies. But going back to the original texts, FAITH in God tells me that they are correct.
That Book is the only real physical proof that we have today that can provide insight into what God's will is, and what His love is about. For God to inspire an innacurate scripture would feel almost like a cruel joke,, we would be hopeless.
To continue to quote scripture that you do not believe is accurate to prove your point is hypocrisy. Just say, I can prove Santa isn't real, because the Easter bunny told me so... and I don't believe in him either!
To believe that you hold the knowledge in your head needed to discern between the accurate scriptures (the ones that back your theories) and the inaccurate ones (the ones that don't???).. reminds me of something... Rom 1.22 Professing to be wise, they became fools...
mikki
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
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Hi Mik, welcome back.
You seem to be in trouble to harmonize Paul with Jesus. Don't try it! It's a wasting of
time. Paul is the personification of contradiction. The New American Version of the Bible puts him saying in Romans 7:15, "I cannot even understand my own actions."
What did you expect?
Then, you say, "We should strive to become just like Jesus." You will never be able to become just like Jesus if you never drop the "Christ" of Paul. That's what causes
all the confusion. We read in Revelation 14:12 the following: "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." I am sure you know what was the faith of Jesus: Judaism. How about Paul's?
Christianity. How could you find harmony between Jesus and Paul if they did not practise the same faith? The saints are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, which was Judaism. The title of "Christ" was added to Jesus by Paul about 30 years after Jesus' death. Even Jesus' Apostles had never heard of it
till Paul showed up in Jerusalem preaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected. Good luck Mik!
Ben :clap
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
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Hi In-God-We-Trust,
I have news for you. the author of the Letter to the Hebrews is no longer unknown.
It was written by Paul. Here is the reason why he did not sign that Letter of his. After he decided to found his own church, Christianity, he went to Jerusalem two times. The first time he spent 15 days, when he caused such a havov in Jerusalem preaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God and that he had resurrected that the Jews went on an uproar to kill him for preaching heresy. The Nazarenes, whose headquarters was in Jerusalem, and afraid that Paul could cause a problem for them, took him down to Ceasarea, and from there they shipped him back to Tarsus where he belonged.
The second time Paul visited Jerusalem was 14 years later, and he was arrested at the Temple by some Jews from Asia who identified him as the one who was preaching to the Jews everywhere in the Diaspora, against Moses , the Law and the Sanctuary. When he (Paul) saw that he was about to be delivered to the Jews, he used his rights as a Roman citizen and appealed to Ceaser. He was sent to Rome, and stayed in house arrest till he died.
Okay, he had churches throughout Asia Minor, but was never able to plant a branch of his church in Israeli soil. But he did have some small groups of Christians who would get together in private houses. He knew that a letter of his to these groups in Israel would only put the lives of the Christians in danger, because the Pharisees were on the alert for any kind of Pauline heresy to get into Jerusalem. That's the reason why he did not sign his Letter to the Hebrews. But he was indeed the author.
Ben :clap
InGodWeTrust
Member
This is in stark contrast to another letter of Paul's where he says, see, I am writing this in my own hand. This particular letter would have caused an uproar because it is the most direct attack on the Jewish religion. He may have had someone write it as a propaganda piece to be distributed, anonymously.
mikmik
Member
We did a huge study on the book of Hebrews a while back. If I find my notes, I can give you all the reasoning facts behind it,, but yes, Ben is correct, Paul wrote the book of Hebrews.
mik
InGodWeTrust
Member
I doubt that Paul did the actual writing, but he may have been the mind behind it. He did a good job of disguising his authorship, if in fact he did write it.
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
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I never doubt for a minute that the Letter to the Hebrews was not of Paul's authorship. The man's style is all over.
Ben
mikmik
Member
Nope, no problems here at all,, thanks for your concerns. I have never had any reason to believe that Paul wasn't in harmony with the old covenant laws, or the principles that Jesus taught. I guess I hadn't caught on before that you believe these things about Paul. I will keep that in mind when I read your posts,, I might better understand what and why you are saying some things.
Romans 7. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. (Who doesn't suffer with this internal debate.. He knows what is right and wrong, yet he continues to sin, despite that fact that tries so hard not to.) 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (He recognizes that Satan is the ruler of earth right now,, and the human heart is deceitful above all things, and that our human nature is enmity towards God,, not because we will it to be so, but the law of evil, of Satan, is broadcasted through the air for all, and circles through the minds of us all constantly, tempting us to do evil. Sometimes I have felt that gut-wrenching sorrow from within because I just knew so well that something was wrong, but gave in to the temptation and did it anyway, and the sin not only hurts me, but God.) 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank Godthrough Jesus Christ our Lord! (Paul is a very humble man before God, and seeks Him out, through Jesus Christ our Lord,,, probably a wise choice!) So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (And so the internal struggle of man goes on, and he will continue to try.)
And again I state, that the Greek meaning of the word at the time it was written is very significant to the meaning of a verse. That is a fact.
I will endure to the end, at least trying. You are right, no one will ever be like Him while alive in the evil age, under the rule and influence of Satan. Our Father understands that children make mistakes constantly, but the effort must continue. When you see your kid not even trying to do what you told them, it is a whole new game!
I am curious Ben, you keep the weekly Sabbath? (sunset Friday to sunset Saturday?) How about the annual Sabbaths?
mik
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
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Did you get the last verse of Romans 7? Paul praises God for his condition in serving the law of sin with his flesh and the Law of God with his mind. That's an easy life to live, when one enjoys the good of both worlds. On the other hand, that's a shameful confession of a man who was responsible for a religion: The first Pope of Christianity.
Regarding your curiosity about my keeping the weekly Sabbath from sunset Friday to Saturday sunset, I do. However, I have no qualms to involve myself on any activity to help physically or spiritually anyone else.
Ben :rainbow1:
AK4
Well-Known Member
Ben, Paul harmonizes with all of scripture. You dont have the spiritual eyes to see it yet. In no way does he contradict anything.
Serving the law of sin? Then what was he doing daily?
1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
What is dying to?
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
There is nothing easy about this life trust me.
Oh by the way i guess he must of fooled Peter too since in Roman 7 and 8 he his teaching us to have a clear conscience
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Gee here is some harmony
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
mikmik
Member
He praised God right after he asked who is going to save him from his sinful flesh... "Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank Godthrough Jesus Christ our Lord!" Sounds right to me.
When he said "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin", this was not bragging. This whole paragraph sounded desperate and tormenting except when he named who would save him from himself. He states that " 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." He recognizes that he should be following the law, and is happy to do so. But then, he fails and sins,, even describing it as captivity... this did not sound like his plan of action on Paul's part, at all. It doesn't sound like he is enjoying this way either. He has the desire to follow the law, and the fleshy exsistence that will sin anyway. This whole paragraph could be my own words, every day!
The pope comment,, did you mean that literally?
I agree,, Jesus made it very clear that doing good works on the Sabbath was perfectly fine,, Oh, and what about the annual Sabbaths, do you keep those as well? If you don't mind me asking.
mik