Why I didn't believe in Bahaism when I researched it.

[InvestigateTruth]

Think and respond.

Whats the dating of this hadith?

First you prove that Quran came from God, before you even assume it is the word of God. How do you know Muhammad didnt make it up? You cannot prove this. Even you cannot prove, Quran verses are all what Muhammad had said.

But beside these, your idea that if hadithes were written down centuries after, they cannot be trustworthy is a faulty conclusion. If you think a hadith I quote is not true, you need to prove it. It is almost like if someone says, Quran is corrupted, because it has no signature or seal of Muhammad on it.

I can understand you don't feel you are obligated to accept hadithes whenever you don't like them. But it is like an atheist who does not take verses of Quran as true statement simply because he doesnt believe Quran as word of God.


But, one who truly believes Quran to be word of God, must likewise believe that there is enough truth in Hadithes for interpreting Quran. How could God sends a Book containing many unclear verses, or ambiguous terms, yet, He did not provide a way to properly understand and interprete the verses?
I am tell you, God has provided interpretation of the Quran through the sayings of the Prophet and His successors so, when someone wants to learn Quran correctly, He can refer to their hadithes. And just as, He cared to protect His Book, He has also care to protect hadithes as a farther guidance to understand Quran.

 

[stvdv]

I asked about maitreya, not what Benjamin Creme wrote. If he was right, Matreya came in the 80's. Maitreya according to Buddhist scripture. And by "other things" i meant all the things that come with maitreya, according to the Buddhist scripture.

Again, Do you believe only maitreya will come or do you believe the other things that come with him also came already?

I don't know about the Maitreya according to Buddhist scripture. Never read about it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Bab didn't have an Ahlulbayt like the structure of guidance in Quran. Neither did Baha'allah. Instead you have this committee. Sorry, Ahlulbayt and chosen ones and the kings of God not supposed to replaced by some committee!

The Bab had 18 close followers, known as 18 letters of living. The duration of the Babi religion was short, there was no need for continuation of successorship.
Then Bahaullah during His mission had apostles who can be seen similar to Jesus apostles. Bahaullah had appointed Abdulbaha as His successor, in His will. After Abdulbaha, Shoghi effendi was the next divinely appointed person. Later, according to writings of Bahaullah, Universal House of Justice.

Your idea that a Prophet of God has to have successors generation after generation for ever is not compatible with Quran. Even in Islam, the Imams continued to live till year 260 AH. In Christianity, Jesus did not have such a successorship, was not He a true Messenger?

 

[CG Didymus]

Adam was the first Prophet and Muhammad the last. There was a lineage or succession of Prophets from Adam to Muhammad, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. Each built on what had gone before.

Why does the Baha'i Faith think that Adam was a manifestation or prophet? I don't think that Judaism or Christianity sees him that way, do they? And, does Islam see him as a prophet?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It's not a single verse, there's many.

3.85 And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

What does Islam mean according to Quran? Islam was the religion that all Prophets had believed in. Islam is the religion that God had revealed to Moses, Noah and Jesus.
But does that mean God had revealed exactly same Laws and ordinances to all Messengers?
Did not God according to Quran made strong covenant with Jews to keep the Sabath?
Now, I ask this question from you: if God had also revealed Islam to Moses, why did God ask the Jews to keep covenant of sabbath, but no such a covenant is required by Muslims? It seems God had a different requirement from the People of Moses than People of Muhammad.
Moreover, haven't you seen the verses of Quran saying the religion of Moses was Islam? Another question for you: Islam is an Arabic word. How could religion of Moses be called Islam? Allah send prophets to every nation to speak in their own language!
Once you clarified these questions, we can continue...on this issue of, only acceptable religion is Islam.

5.3 (...) This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. (...)

Let me ask you a question. When God sent Moses to His people, did He complete His religion for them, or He left them with an incomplete religion?

28.48 But when the truth came to them from Us, they said, "Why was he not given like that which was given to Moses?" Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Moses before? They said, "[They are but] two works of magic supporting each other, and indeed we are, in both, disbelievers."

I don't know how this verses is relevant regarding finality of a religion. Can you elaborate?

28.49 Say, "Then bring a scripture from Allah which is more guiding than either of them that I may follow it, if you should be truthful."

You are following another Scripture meaning it's better than the Quran or the Quran is not complete.

Yes, Bahais follow a newer scriptures. Because Bahais believe God send a more recent Scripture, which is more suitable for this new Age. Bahais believe, each Book of God is only meant for period. It is mentioned in the Quran as well. See 13:38-40

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why does the Baha'i Faith think that Adam was a manifestation or prophet? I don't think that Judaism or Christianity sees him that way, do they? And, does Islam see him as a prophet?

Adam is seen as the first Prophet or Nabi in Islam.

Adam in Islam - Wikipedia

There are very different and contrasting views of Adam in both Judaism and Christianity but He generally isn't seen as a Prophet in either tradition.

Adam - Wikipedia

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There are many hadiths saying there is Twelve Leaders after Mohammad, and the twelfth being the Qaim. And many stating the twelfth being the Mahdi.

But aside from that, I see you acknowledge the Twelfth while before you would were saying Imam Mahdi was never born, and it was the Bab. At the very least you agree the Twelve Successors are not Anbiya.

So if Imam Mahdi was born, and the twelve successors hadith refers to succession clearly as they do, then what is the role of that Imam. He was 3 when he disappeared and is yet to lead the people.

What is the purpose of him being born? Remember, you said when talking about successors, it's context of those who succeed him in succession, while the Bab and Baha'allah are Messengers in a new era and don't refer to his successors.

So again, what is the purpose of the twelfth successor?

Muhammad did not say He will have 12 successors. He said, there will be 12 Imams after Him. If I said 12 successors, I just used the translation and term Shias are familiar with. But it is an incorrect translation. Correct translation would be 12 Imams.

In some cases, an Imam can also be a Messenger with divine Book. For example, as you know, Abraham was an Imam, as well as a Messenger with a Book.
11 imams of shia, starting from Ali are only Imams with no new divine Book, but Mahdi, who is the 12th One, from the lineage of Prophet, has higher station. He comes with a new Book. As I quoted, He is as, return of all other Messengers, and prophets. No other Imam of shia can ever be said, is same as Muhammad, Jesus, Moses. Imams like Ali, or Sadiq, have a lower station than Muhammad. Even in traditions, Ali said, I am slave or servant of Muhammad. But when it comes to the Qaim, Muhammad said, He will be the first to believe in Qaim. That shows Qaim have a higher station than Muhammad.

 

[firedragon]

Just so you know, I mark these posts for a lot of people as 'optomistic', as from my view I see a person has chosen to pursue and interpretation, over that of what Messenger from God has offered for us to consider.

Peace be with you and all, Regards Tony

Same to you.

 

[firedragon]

The Quran doesn’t say a lot of things. How could it? It was composed in the seventh century. That is why both elaboration and further Revelation are necessary Imho.

Thats a different matter. I was addressing misquoting the Quran by saying what it doesnnt say as if it dows.

 

[firedragon]

First you prove that Quran came from God, before you even assume it is the word of God. How do you know Muhammad didnt make it up? You cannot prove this. Even you cannot prove, Quran verses are all what Muhammad had said.

But beside these, your idea that if hadithes were written down centuries after, they cannot be trustworthy is a faulty conclusion. If you think a hadith I quote is not true, you need to prove it. It is almost like if someone says, Quran is corrupted, because it has no signature or seal of Muhammad on it.

I can understand you don't feel you are obligated to accept hadithes whenever you don't like them. But it is like an atheist who does not take verses of Quran as true statement simply because he doesnt believe Quran as word of God.


But, one who truly believes Quran to be word of God, must likewise believe that there is enough truth in Hadithes for interpreting Quran. How could God sends a Book containing many unclear verses, or ambiguous terms, yet, He did not provide a way to properly understand and interprete the verses?
I am tell you, God has provided interpretation of the Quran through the sayings of the Prophet and His successors so, when someone wants to learn Quran correctly, He can refer to their hadithes. And just as, He cared to protect His Book, He has also care to protect hadithes as a farther guidance to understand Quran.

Strawman argument and i was not talking about which one is Gods word.

Dont generalise everything. I asked you for the dating of the hadith. I didnt say i dont believe inn hadith or not even if I believe the Quran is ~Gods word. All that is not relevant to what i asked. You are not responding directly because either you dont know the answer or you suspect foulplay. But maybe the purpose for asking you that question has more significance than you would think.

By your answers it is evident that you are not giving honest answers and is not useful to have a discussion.

Languages change. You are quoting 18th century documents. Its called foosha al asr. The Quran was written in the 7th century, more than a thousand years before the document you are quoting. The language is very different and its called foosha atturath.

Thats only one of the significances. But anyway, you can continue that path brother. All good.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

I don't know about the Maitreya according to Buddhist scripture. Never read about it.

OK.

 

[firedragon]

To me this explains an important aspect of the oneness of God and how we come to it;

39:23. "Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah's praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide........"

The following passages in the same chapter to me talk about the day of judgement, when we have the arrival of the Bab and Baha'u'llah in these passages (Green highlight);

"........68. The Trumpet will (just) be sounded, when all that are in the heavens and on earth will swoon, except such as it will please Allah (to exempt). Then will a second one be sounded, when behold, they will be standing and looking on! (Bab and Baha'u'llah the Two Trumpets)
69. And the Earth will shine with the glory of its Lord (Baha'u'llah): the Record (of Deeds) will be placed (open); the prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward: and a just decision pronounced between them; and they will not be wronged (in the least)...."

Thus to me Baha'u'llah has brought the prophets all forward and show us they are one and all the Messengers from God and the witnesses to them, they can no longer be wronged.

This verse to me even talks about the Declaration of Baha'u'llah in the garden of Ridvan outside Baghdad'

73. " And those who feared their Lord will be led to the Garden in crowds: until behold, they arrive there; its gates will be opened: and its Keepers will say: "Peace be upon you! Well have ye done! Enter ye here, to dwell therein."

To which the chapter finishes with this great announcement;

75. And thou wilt see the angels surrounding the Throne (Divine) on all sides, singing Glory and Praise to their Lord. The Decision between them (at Judgement) will be in (perfect) justice. And the cry (on all sides) will be, "Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!"

Regards Tony

Honestly, this is the first response i have seen so far where you actually make a decently viable claim.

Though it is completely irrelevant to me and my faith, it is completely relevant to you and your faith. You are looking at Quranic verses from the microscope of the Bahai faith so you will see it from that angle only. I will not. I will see it from my faiths perspective.

Peace.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thats a different matter. I was addressing misquoting the Quran by saying what it doesnnt say as if it dows.

I wasn’t misquoting the Quran at all. I would encourage you to take more care in your expression.

Here is the verse from the Quran I quoted.

Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
3:84

So I have quoted the verse from Yusuf Ali’s translation. This is a recognised and highly respected translation. I made a statement this verse supports that the Prophets of God are ‘One.’ I have further explained that oneness can have different meanings, for example being unified or whole, though comprised of two or more parts. An example given by the Oxford dictionary is "the oneness of all suffering people"

You clearly disagree with my perspective and that is fine. However I’m not misquoting the Quran. Nor am I making a statement that is in clear contradiction with the text itself as you assert. However you ‘believe’ I am making a statement that contradicts the text. On that point we will need to agree to disagree.

 

[arthra]

The "Seal of the Prophets" can I believe taken as a "Seal" of authority rather than an "end".

"We now come to the third usage of the word seal—as a noun—as applied to Muhammad: the Seal of the Prophets. Does the word “seal” as a noun point to “closing”? Not at all, unless we stretch our imagination beyond reason. It is neither idiomatic nor meaningful to apply the word “seal” to a human being. Suppose you said: “I am the seal of my brother!” What would that mean? What would others think? Could anyone interpret your statement by saying that you are the last brother, that you somehow stopped the birth of new brothers? What if you said: “I am the seal of my neighbors.” Would that mean that you are the last neighbor? What, then, does the word “seal” as a noun convey? It conveys the ideas of ownership, approval, protection, and authority. “Seal” as a noun means an “official mark” adopted and used to identify a specific person or institution. It is a close equivalent of “signature.” As a noun, “seal” does not point to an action, as it does as a verb. It rather conveys the idea of approval. Consider the following biblical verse, where “seal” is used as a noun: On Him [Jesus] God…has placed His seal of approval."

Muhammad: The Seal of the Prophets
Dr. Muhammad Abraham Khan
http://sealofprophets.org/SealE.pdf

The Baha'i view is further expressed:

Bahá'u'lláh's Interpretations of Seal

"In addition to the eschatological exposition above, Bahá'u'lláh's approach to khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) in the Kitáb-i-Iqán uses theological clarifications. Bahá'u'lláh explains that the manifestations have two stations - one human (the station of distinction), the other divine (the station of unity). Their oneness is found in their divine station where they all possess the same names and titles - a unity of attributes:
. . . viewed from the standpoint of their oneness and sublime detachment, the attributes of Godhead, Divinity, Supreme Singleness, and Inmost Essence, have been and are applicable to those Essences of being . . . (Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Iqán 177) The attribute of sealship in this theological perspective is no exception - it can apply to all the manifestations of God:
And were they [the Manifestations of God] all to proclaim: "I am the Seal of the Prophets," they verily utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one revelation. They are all manifestation of the "Beginning" and the "End," the "First" and the "Last" . . . (ibid, 179)."

A Bahá'í Approach to the Claim of Finality in Islam

 

[firedragon]

I wasn’t misquoting the Quran at all. I would encourage you to take more care in your expression.

Here is the verse from the Quran I quoted.

Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
3:84

So I have quoted the verse from Yusuf Ali’s translation. This is a recognised and highly respected translation. I made a statement this verse supports that the Prophets of God are ‘One.’ I have further explained that oneness can have different meanings, for example being unified or whole, though comprised of two or more parts. An example given by the Oxford dictionary is "the oneness of all suffering people"

You clearly disagree with my perspective and that is fine. However I’m not misquoting the Quran. Nor am I making a statement that is in clear contradiction with the text itself as you assert. However you ‘believe’ I am making a statement that contradicts the text. On that point we will need to agree to disagree.

Brother. None of the translations you have ever cut and pasted here says all the messengers are one. I mean those words. They are not used. Thus, when you misquote the verse, you are misquoting the verse. a

I am not addressing your perspective. Thats a whole other subject. I am directly addressing your misquote of a verse. I am not implying that you think all the prophets are one person altogether or what ever your perspective is. I am again telling you as i explained very clearly that this is speaking about many prophets and i can again for the third time explain in arabic, that it does not say the words "One" and saying that is misquoting the book.

Sorry if thats offensive.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Brother. None of the translations you have ever cut and pasted here says all the messengers are one. I mean those words. They are not used. Thus, when you misquote the verse, you are misquoting the verse. a

I am not addressing your perspective. Thats a whole other subject. I am directly addressing your misquote of a verse. I am not implying that you think all the prophets are one person altogether or what ever your perspective is. I am again telling you as i explained very clearly that this is speaking about many prophets and i can again for the third time explain in arabic, that it does not say the words "One" and saying that is misquoting the book.

Sorry if thats offensive.

I see the oneness of the Messengers in the this;

"Tawhid"
(Arabic: توحيد‎ tawḥīd, meaning "unification or oneness of God";
also romanized as Tawheed, Touheed, Tauheed or Tevhid) is the indivisible oneness concept of monotheism in islam. Tawhid is the religion's central and single most important concept, upon which a Muslim's entire faith rests. It unequivocally holds that God is One (Al-ʾAḥad) and Single (Al-Wāḥid).

To me that is exactly what Baha'u'llah is saying, that all Messengers are the exponents of that Oneness, as all we will ever know about God is through the Messengers, all they tell us and show us is knowledge we can not go beyond. The 99 names of God show us how that Oneness can be seen, each individual name but an emanating part of the whole.

Tawhid - Wikipedia

In the end, all we say about God from the beginning of time has in no way ever defined God in any way. God is above all our imaginations, as are the Messengers also beyond our minds.

We become one people only when we become One in our acceptance of all of God's Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

I see the oneness of the Messengers in the this;

"Tawhid"
(Arabic: توحيد‎ tawḥīd, meaning "unification or oneness of God";
also romanized as Tawheed, Touheed, Tauheed or Tevhid) is the indivisible oneness concept of monotheism in islam. Tawhid is the religion's central and single most important concept, upon which a Muslim's entire faith rests. It unequivocally holds that God is One (Al-ʾAḥad) and Single (Al-Wāḥid).

To me that is exactly what Baha'u'llah is saying, that all Messengers are the exponents of that Oneness, as all we will ever know about God is through the Messengers, all they tell us and show us is knowledge we can not go beyond. The 99 names of God show us how that Oneness can be seen, each individual name but an emanating part of the whole.

Tawhid - Wikipedia

In the end, all we say about God from the beginning of time has in no way ever defined God in any way. God is above all our imaginations, as are the Messengers also beyond our minds.

We become one people only when we become One in our acceptance of all of God's Messengers.

Regards Tony

God is one.

Irrelevant to misquoting the Quran and saying the rasools are also all "One".

You give a wikipedia reference, and it would quote the surathul ihlas to explain tauheed. Not what you are trying to imply. You are quoting sources you yourself do not uphold or/and do not understand.

You are quoting some arabic words above. Tawhid, wahid, ahad, etc. tell me. What does ahadhin mean?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Strawman argument and i was not talking about which one is Gods word.

Dont generalise everything. I asked you for the dating of the hadith. I didnt say i dont believe inn hadith or not even if I believe the Quran is ~Gods word. All that is not relevant to what i asked. You are not responding directly because either you dont know the answer or you suspect foulplay. But maybe the purpose for asking you that question has more significance than you would think.

By your answers it is evident that you are not giving honest answers and is not useful to have a discussion.

Languages change. You are quoting 18th century documents. Its called foosha al asr. The Quran was written in the 7th century, more than a thousand years before the document you are quoting. The language is very different and its called foosha atturath.

Thats only one of the significances. But anyway, you can continue that path brother. All good.

Peace.

The date does not matter. 7th century or 18th century. When the signature or stamp of the Author is not on the document, you cannot prove it, the document was all written by that author.

Believers considered the Quran, as well as words of Muhammad and Imams to be Holy and divine inspiration, thus they cared to memorize them and pass them generation to generation.

Most of The Hadithes I have quoted can also be found in the Book Al Kafi, which was written in about the 9th century!

Moreover, let me ask you a question. How come when Hadithes were quoted which says there is no Prophet after Muhammad, you did not question those Hadithes? When were they written?

 

[firedragon]

Moreover, let me ask you a question. How come when Hadithes were quoted which says there is no Prophet after Muhammad, you did not question those Hadithes? When were they written?

I think you didnt read my comment so i will cut and paste a part of it for you to read and understand the significance of the date of writing.

"Languages change. You are quoting 18th century documents. Its called foosha al asr. The Quran was written in the 7th century, more than a thousand years before the document you are quoting. The language is very different and its called foosha atturath."

To answer your question about the hypocrisy in my approach by not asking you for dates, i told you the date, i didnt ask you. Even in this matter i have told you the date.

But what truly surprises me is that you dont seem to know the dates or anything in depth about the sources you are quoting yourself which is extremely strange.

 

[Link]

Salam @InvestigateTruth

I found a hadith that contextualize the word "Khulifa" which I can predict giving alternative translations then successor, but this one contextualizes it with Wasiya and includes the Mahdi in it:

I will skip the chain but it's in page 32 of this book: أربعون حديثا معتبرا في النص على الأئمة الاثني عشر بأسمائهم - الشيخ أحمد الماحوزي.pdf

And he analyzes all chains, the author, and only provides hadiths he believes are authenticated chain wise.

The Messenger (pbuh&hf) said to Ali ibn Talib (as), Oh Ali who has more authority/right over believers then themselves, then Hassan, then Hussain, then Ali son of Hussain, then Mohammad son of Ali, then Jaffar son of Mohammad, then Musa son of Jaffar, then Ali son of Musa, then Mohammad son of Ali, then Ali son of Mohammad, then Hassan son of Ali, then the proof son of Hassan, then to him will come to an end the Khulifya and Wasiya (both words synonymous with succession and emphasizing on each other) and will be hidden for a long period then will appear and will fill the earth with equity and justice just as it was filled with tyranny and oppression.

I left the two words untranslated, but like Quran uses Amr and mulk in verses to contextualize Ulil-Amr, to mean authority (so mulk and amr in verses preceding and at 4:59 mean the same thing), it's the same, Rasool is using Wasiya to contextualize Khulifya (succession) and using that word to emphasize what it means by Wasiya.

I will await your analyses before providing more hadiths (for example, twelve Awsiya or Twelve Khulifa hadiths).

I will also be trying to clear your misconceptions about the Ahlulbayt of Jesus and the Twelve Captains with him (they were his predecessors including Moses).

You have to understand my understanding of Quranic concept of Ahlulbayt. These houses/families are always through which God establishes his light, just as there is always a guide, so too there is always a family of the reminder chosen by God. This is mutuwatir in hadiths and can even be proven in Quran. And the number after the founder is always Twelve. Jesus was not a founder, but the last of successors of Messengers from successors of Moses.

The twelve Successors of Moses and the Captain Messengers of the covenant who sail by the name of God as they are the names of God in Quran are:

(1) Aaron (not Joshua)
(2) Samuel (the Prophet that appointed Saul/Talut).
(3) Talut
(4) Dawood
(5) Solaiman
(6) Elyas
(7) Alyasa
(8) Dul-Kifl
(9) Imran
(10) Zakariya
(11) Yahya
(12) Isa

So keeping in mind the Prophet said "There will be no Prophets after me, but there will be Successors...", and the above hadith contextualizing Caliphate to mean succession, we can conclude all the hadiths about twelve Caliphs in Shiite and Sunni sources, should be translated as Twelve Successors of who none are Anbiya.