Why I didn't believe in Bahaism when I researched it.

[InvestigateTruth]

I think you didnt read my comment so i will cut and paste a part of it for you to read and understand the significance of the date of writing.

"Languages change. You are quoting 18th century documents. Its called foosha al asr. The Quran was written in the 7th century, more than a thousand years before the document you are quoting. The language is very different and its called foosha atturath."

To answer your question about the hypocrisy in my approach by not asking you for dates, i told you the date, i didnt ask you. Even in this matter i have told you the date.

But what truly surprises me is that you dont seem to know the dates or anything in depth about the sources you are quoting yourself which is extremely strange.

The language of the Hadithes I quoted is classic arabic, same classic arabic used at the time of Muhammad and Imams. I read their Arabic too. But, what is more important than just the language, is the concept. If a Hadith is compatible with Quran, and there is evidence for it in the Quran, that Hadith is to be taken as valid. If a Hadith contradicts Quran, that Hadith is not valid.

I have been always aware that Hadithese were mostly collected more then a couple centuries after Muhammad. I am not selective regarding Hadithes, if they are from Sunni or Shia Hadithes. I have done a lot of research on hadithes. It is very rare a hadith is false. From my experience more than 99% of hadith are in agreement with Quran. I even accept the hadithes that said, There is no prophet after Muhammad!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam @InvestigateTruth

I found a hadith that contextualize the word "Khulifa" which I can predict giving alternative translations then successor, but this one contextualizes it with Wasiya and includes the Mahdi in it:

I will skip the chain but it's in page 32 of this book: أربعون حديثا معتبرا في النص على الأئمة الاثني عشر بأسمائهم - الشيخ أحمد الماحوزي.pdf

And he analyzes all chains, the author, and only provides hadiths he believes are authenticated chain wise.

The Messenger (pbuh&hf) said to Ali ibn Talib (as), Oh Ali who has more authority/right over believers then themselves, then Hassan, then Hussain, then Ali son of Hussain, then Mohammad son of Ali, then Jaffar son of Mohammad, then Musa son of Jaffar, then Ali son of Musa, then Mohammad son of Ali, then Ali son of Mohammad, then Hassan son of Ali, then the proof son of Hassan, then to him will come to an end the Khulifya and Wasiya (both words synonymous with succession and emphasizing on each other) and will be hidden for a long period then will appear and will fill the earth with equity and justice just as it was filled with tyranny and oppression.

I left the two words untranslated, but like Quran uses Amr and mulk in verses to contextualize Ulil-Amr, to mean authority (so mulk and amr in verses preceding and at 4:59 mean the same thing), it's the same, Rasool is using Wasiya to contextualize Khulifya (succession) and using that word to emphasize what it means by Wasiya.

I will await your analyses before providing more hadiths (for example, twelve Awsiya or Twelve Khulifa hadiths).

I will also be trying to clear your misconceptions about the Ahlulbayt of Jesus and the Twelve Captains with him (they were his predecessors including Moses).

You have to understand my understanding of Quranic concept of Ahlulbayt. These houses/families are always through which God establishes his light, just as there is always a guide, so too there is always a family of the reminder chosen by God. This is mutuwatir in hadiths and can even be proven in Quran. And the number after the founder is always Twelve. Jesus was not a founder, but the last of successors of Messengers from successors of Moses.

The twelve Successors of Moses and the Captain Messengers of the covenant who sail by the name of God as they are the names of God in Quran are:

(1) Aaron (not Joshua)
(2) Samuel (the Prophet that appointed Saul/Talut).
(3) Talut
(4) Dawood
(5) Solaiman
(6) Elyas
(7) Alyasa
(8) Dul-Kifl
(9) Imran
(10) Zakariya
(11) Yahya
(12) Isa

So keeping in mind the Prophet said "There will be no Prophets after me, but there will be Successors...", and the above hadith contextualizing Caliphate to mean succession, we can conclude all the hadiths about twelve Caliphs in Shiite and Sunni sources, should be translated as Twelve Successors of who none are Anbiya.

Salam,

You have made a good point. You have said, "Jesus was not a founder, but the last of successors of Messengers from successors of Moses."

I agree, however, Jesus had also a new revelation, known as Injil, whereas, none of the previous successors of Moses, had any new Revelation. Those prophets of Bani Israel, were promoters of Religion of Moses.
When Jesus came, initially He taught religion of Moses, but after a point in time, He taught new things. He changed some of the Laws of Moses. Quran testifies that Jesus by permission of God, changed laws of Moses.

The Qaim is the same. He is from the lineage of Muhammad. According to hadithes, He will teach Quran correctly. So, in the beginning, the Qaim corrects misinterpretations about Quran, and Islam, but later, He will bring a new Book.
So, in a sense, in the begining of Qaim's mission, He appears as a successor of Muhammad, and eventually His station becomes that of a new Messenger with a new Book.
If you look at traditions about Abraham, it is said, God gave Him different stations gradually. First He was appointed as servant of God, then a prophet, later a Messenger, and finally an Imam. I mean, Qaim, has different stations as well.

 

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@InvestigateTruth, 99% of hadiths are not in agreement with Quran. In fact, this is because, you are not brutally honest with hadiths that contradict Quran, that you don't see the many that do.

We have many hadiths that say to kill a person who insults the Prophet or Twelve Imams, without a judge, without asking permission of the Imam. They are Mutuwatur in our sources chain wise (many authentic hadiths). Thankfully Shiites never took them seriously, because it does contradict reason and Quran.

This is just one type of hadith that contradicts reason and Quran, and Prophet and Imams would not have emphasized to refer back to Quran the hadiths and reject it if Quran rejects it, if everything attributed to them by narrators were true!

 

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Salam,

You have made a good point. You have said, "Jesus was not a founder, but the last of successors of Messengers from successors of Moses."

I agree, however, Jesus had also a new revelation, known as Injil, whereas, none of the previous successors of Moses, had any new Revelation. Those prophets of Bani Israel, were promoters of Religion of Moses.
When Jesus came, initially He taught religion of Moses, but after a point in time, He taught new things. He changed some of the Laws of Moses. Quran testifies that Jesus by permission of God, changed laws of Moses.

The Qaim is the same. He is from the lineage of Muhammad. According to hadithes, He will teach Quran correctly. So, in the beginning, the Qaim corrects misinterpretations about Quran, and Islam, but later, He will bring a new Book.
So, in a sense, in the begining of Qaim's mission, He appears as a successor of Muhammad, and eventually His station becomes that of a new Messenger with a new Book.
If you look at traditions about Abraham, it is said, God gave Him different stations gradually. First He was appointed as servant of God, then a prophet, later a Messenger, and finally an Imam. I mean, Qaim, has different stations as well.

We will talk more about the concept of Ahlulbayt, but my criticism was Bahaism lacks that concept, it had it to Shokh Efendi, but then relatives it seems - none of them succeeded.

Abraham traditions of becoming an Imam later are in Al-Kafi but contradict Quran and hadiths that show all Anbiya are Imams.

You are aware always of one type of hadith, this is because you don't know like al-Tusi said, for everything hadith that say x, you can either find the opposite or it's negation in our hadiths.

I will await your response on the contextualizing of Wasiya and Khilafa, then will provide hadiths about Twelve Awsiya and Twelve Successors.

For example, regarding the Rajaa - there is hadiths that Ahlulabyt will return, there is also hadiths they will not and the Mahdi will be the last human to die and when he does day of judgment will occur.

To know which one is true, you can only refer to Quran and analyze it's philosophy in this respect.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@InvestigateTruth, 99% of hadiths are not in agreement with Quran. In fact, this is because, you are not brutally honest with hadiths that contradict Quran, that you don't see the many that do.

We have many hadiths that say to kill a person who insults the Prophet or Twelve Imams, without a judge, without asking permission of the Imam. They are Mutuwatur in our sources chain wise (many authentic hadiths). Thankfully Shiites never took them seriously, because it does contradict reason and Quran.

This is just one type of hadith that contradicts reason and Quran, and Prophet and Imams would not have emphasized to refer back to Quran the hadiths and reject it if Quran rejects it, if everything attributed to them by narrators were true!

Ok, this could be just one false hadith, which is rare to me. I agree, every Hadith must be tested against Quran.

 

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I agree, however, Jesus had also a new revelation, known as Injil, whereas, none of the previous successors of Moses, had any new Revelation.

We'll have to disagree on this. They did have revelations but it's part of the law (Torah). Injeel was only named something different, because, the law was no longer applicable without a manifest leader present till Mohamad. So God named the Injeel something different and it also went in over-time in showing what they had with them through Moses and Aaron and the chosen offspring of Aaron, but threw away. When Jesus emphasized on himself he said he is the star of the family of David, meaning, someone had to inherit him and be that star of guidance. When talking about how Elijah returned talked about Yahya to show between him and Mohammad was Elijah, the adn comforter to come was Mohammad and the position of the holy spirit and guidance predicted and which has the flavor "all this praise of me, you had it in the past, and again, someone will come to give this favor of God all over again", predicted by Jesus. While he talked about Elijah returning as in he went to the sky but now is on earth definitely, as who will be between him and Mohammad?

Elijah came back as a hidden guide. Simon and the Disciples were not absolute authorities, they can say wrong things, they can error, they are even warned to to disbelieve, but alhamdulilah they didn't and were prime helpers of God.

Simon is not the successor of Jesus like some hadiths say.

And understand this and you will understand the two places of Elyas/Elijah in Quran.

 

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Ok, this could be just one false hadith, which is rare to me. I agree, every Hadith must be tested against Quran.

They are not rare. There are many false hadiths, be on the look out for them!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

We will talk more about the concept of Ahlulbayt, but my criticism was Bahaism lacks that concept, it had it to Shokh Efendi, but then relatives it seems - none of them succeeded.

Abraham traditions of becoming an Imam later are in Al-Kafi but contradict Quran and hadiths that show all Anbiya are Imams.

You are aware always of one type of hadith, this is because you don't know like al-Tusi said, for everything hadith that say x, you can either find the opposite or it's negation in our hadiths.

I will await your response on the contextualizing of Wasiya and Khilafa, then will provide hadiths about Twelve Awsiya and Twelve Successors.

For example, regarding the Rajaa - there is hadiths that Ahlulabyt will return, there is also hadiths they will not and the Mahdi will be the last human to die and when he does day of judgment will occur.

To know which one is true, you can only refer to Quran and analyze it's philosophy in this respect.

It will not always be 12. In the Bible it was prophesied that when Christ returns, there will be 24.

I quote, the verse of Bible, and explanation of it by Abdulbaha:


“And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God..25

In each cycle the guardians and holy souls have been twelve. So Jacob had twelve sons; in the time of Moses there were twelve heads or chiefs of the tribes; in the time of Christ there were twelve Apostles; and in the time of Muḥammad there were twelve Imáms. But in this glorious manifestation there are twenty-four, double the number of all the others, for the greatness of this manifestation requires it. These holy souls are in the presence of God seated on their own thrones, meaning that they reign eternally.

Abdulbaha, Some Answered Questions.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

 

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It will not always be 12.

It's always twelve and I will try to prove this in Quran but there are ahadith to this respect.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

We will talk more about the concept of Ahlulbayt, but my criticism was Bahaism lacks that concept, it had it to Shokh Efendi, but then relatives it seems - none of them succeeded.

Abraham traditions of becoming an Imam later are in Al-Kafi but contradict Quran and hadiths that show all Anbiya are Imams.

You are aware always of one type of hadith, this is because you don't know like al-Tusi said, for everything hadith that say x, you can either find the opposite or it's negation in our hadiths.

I will await your response on the contextualizing of Wasiya and Khilafa, then will provide hadiths about Twelve Awsiya and Twelve Successors.

For example, regarding the Rajaa - there is hadiths that Ahlulabyt will return, there is also hadiths they will not and the Mahdi will be the last human to die and when he does day of judgment will occur.

To know which one is true, you can only refer to Quran and analyze it's philosophy in this respect.

Why do you think, tradition in Alkafi, about Abraham contredicts with Qura?



It is in confirmation with Quran:

"And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."" 2:124

That shows, Abraham, not only was a prophet and Messenger, but also an Imam.

 

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Why do you think, tradition in Alkafi, about Abraham contredicts with Qura?



It is in confirmation with Quran:

"And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."" 2:124

That shows, Abraham, not only was a prophet and Messenger, but also an Imam.

Imam just means leader, all Messengers were sent to obeyed by God's permission, hence all leaders.

If the tradition of al-kafi was true, all the time Abraham had a community of believers till old age, he was not the guiding leader, but just their Messenger and Prophet, and their leader would be someone else.

The fact is with Nubuwa comes leadership, with Messengership leadership. But leadership can be not in the open and hence neither with Messengership or Nubuwa.

There are hadiths in Alkafi that show Imammate is a position of all Prophets and something that automatically comes with them as well, like the long one from Imam Reda (as) in there.

 

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It is in confirmation with Quran:

There is an interpretation in our hadiths, that says the words tried by Abraham were regarding the Imams from his offspring and God has now perfected/completed it with Mohammad and Ali and Fatima's chosen offspring.

Now the whole premise that this must be in old age, was that Abraham cannot talk about future offspring while he doesn't have any. This is false, and the other false thing is, correct me if I'm wrong, but he had children, just not of the chosen type till Ishmael and Isaac.

 

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Therefore the words tried by God are "I am making you a leader" and "my covenant doesn't include the unjust" and other words and promises about Ismael and Mohammad and Isaac and Jacob and Moses to Jesus in that offspring.

And the reference to "he completed" per this hadith, refers to God completing his promises.

 

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@InvestigateTruth, this why I'm saying, get familiar with all hadiths and try to find negations of hadiths with other hadiths, and try to verify which one makes more sense per Quran and the flow.

In this case, because it goes on to bring about the talk of Ishmael and the promised Messenger from his offspring, and Talut authority given by God. And then interchanges Imamate with Kingship and authority being one and the same thing, I believe this hadith is more in line with Quran!

 

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I found another hadith that says Imam Mahdi is one of the successors (going back we agreed Mohammad's successors are not Prophets).

أربعون حديثا معتبرا في النص على الأئمة الاثني عشر بأسمائهم - الشيخ أحمد الماحوزي.pdf page 38

In a very long hadith (Will get to straight to the point), "who are they (my associates)" Ali is asking... and Mohammad the Prophet replies "the ones who God said regarding them "Obey God and obey the Messenger and those who possess the Authority from you" and Ali then said "and who are they?" and the Nabi replies "The Successors (awsiya) after me - they will not separate (from the Quran) until they reach my pond - Guiding (hadiyeen) the instances of the guidance (mahidiyeen) - no harm will come to them from the plans of who plans against them - they are with the Quran and the Quran is with them - it will not separate from them nor will they separate from it. Ali then says "O Messenger name them for me"

"You oh Ali, then this one and put his hand on the head of Al-Hassan, then his son of mine, and put his hand on the head of Hussain - then one with your name o brother - he is the Master and Adornment of the Worshipers - (I'm getting tired of translating so will note he names the Imams a long with titles they have) - then Hassan son of Ali the pure, then.. (and talks about the Mahdi and what he will do)"

There are many hadiths like this. And there are also hadiths that are without naming them, and say there will be twelve Successors and Ali is the first and the Mahdi who is the 9th from Hussain or others just say the Mahdi is the Twelfth.

So now we have "there is no Prophet after me" and the Mahdi is contained if we supposed it was referring to successors, to the successors of Mohammad.

 

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I don't have time to translate all of the hadiths, but there are a lot that say the Mahdi is one of the Twelve Successors of Mohammad and many hadiths that say there are twelve successors to Mohammad!

 

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I am so far picking up on the word Wasi and Awsiya to be successor. But Caliphate is also succession, and Caliph means Successor. Therefore the many hadiths about this, should also be seen to be Twelve Successors as well. That is the primary meaning of Caliph "to take one's place" and so sometimes it can have representative meaning, but only in the sense of "take's one place". The hadith you provided that there will be no more Prophets, the word Caliphate is used their also in context, that one Prophet would take place of the other in Bani-ISrael but there will be no more Prophets but there will be successors. And so the Twelve Caliphs hadiths in Sunni and Shiite sources has to be seen in this context as well!

 

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There is also a problem with 12 "Imams" with Bahaism aside from the word successors and awsiya. They claim both Baha'allah and Bab are Imams, and even two leaders after.

So the Twelve leaders hadiths either has to be seen in context of his succession or there will be more and more.

That and the Princes (who succeed the kingship of Mohammad) are Twelve per the Torah.

If Succession, the Mahdi is the Twelfth leader and successor, and we agreed there is no Prophethood in there.

And aside from that, you get the number problems. (The math straight up doesn't add up to twelve leaders after the Prophet if you include the leaders of Bahai faith).

 

[CG Didymus]

Adam is seen as the first Prophet or Nabi in Islam.

Adam in Islam - Wikipedia

There are very different and contrasting views of Adam in both Judaism and Christianity but He generally isn't seen as a Prophet in either tradition.

Adam - Wikipedia

From your link:
"Ādam) is believed to have been the first human and nabi (Arabic: نَـبِي‎, prophet) on Earth, in Islam." So, I would imagine that Judaism, Christianity and Islam believe that Adam was a real historical person and was the first person created by God. Do Baha'is believe that? Islam believes he was a prophet? Why? Judaism doesn't and Christianity says that he is the reason sin and death entered into the world. Then, Baha'is believe he was a manifestation? Why?

 

[CG Didymus]

The explanation by Ba'ahallah to "seal of the Prophets" doesn't make sense to me.

The following is from Kitabal Itqan.

Likewise, from this statement it is made evident that the term "last" is applicable to the "first," and the term "first" applicable to the "last;" inasmuch as both the "first" and the "last" have risen to proclaim one and the same Faith.
Notwithstanding the obviousness of this theme, in the eyes of those that have quaffed the wine of
knowledge and certitude, yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term "Seal of the Prophets" to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muhhammad, Himself, declared: "I am all the Prophets?" Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: "I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?" Why should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: "I am the first Adam" be incapable of saying also: "I am the last Adam"? For even as He regarded Himself to be the "First of the Prophets" — that is Adam — in like manner, the "Seal of the Prophets" is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the "First of the Prophets," He likewise is their "Seal."
The mystery of this theme hath, in this Dispensation, been a sore test unto all mankind. Behold, how many are those who, clinging unto these words, have disbelieved Him Who is their true Revealer. What, We ask, could this people presume the terms "first" and "last" — when referring to God — glorified be His Name! — to mean? If they maintain that these terms bear reference to
this material universe, how could it be possible, when the visible order of things is still manifestly existing? Nay, in this instance, by "first" is meant no other than the "last" and by "last" no other than the "first."


Some comments, God could've said in Quran something to that meaning, and Muslims would understand it metaphorically, for example, if Quran said, "it's as if Mohammad is all the Prophets" but not with stating Mohammad is the seal of Prophets to mean this.

It's too much. This means the impression is Mohammad is the last Prophet, but all it means, is the Prophets are all one another. This frankly, doesn't make sense, and you can deny any clear meaning of a verse in this respect.

Baha'allah acknowledges Du'a Nudba and this prayer contradicts the Bahai religon


"Among those writings are the following words recorded in the "Prayer of Nudbih"" That is from Baha'allah, he quotes it and quotes a lot from it in kitabal Itqan to prove his philosophy. While he went into great lengths to explain seal of Prophets, to mean all Prophets are each other, and not that Mohammad is really the seal, what he seemed to have forgotten to explain is a famous hadith.

"You have the position to me as Aaron does to Moses except that there is no Prophet after me"

This is a famous hadith in both Sunni and Shiite hadiths, but, say Baha'is wanted us to question it, they can't really, when it's in Du'a Nudba as well.

And in Du'a nudba there is other things said about the Mahdi to him, for example, if we can find a way to meet, I highly suggest people to read Du'a Nudba. It's on right here if anyone is interested: Dua nudba

The day of judgment

This was all said to be about Baha'allah, and frankly that's crazy to me.

No Ahlulbayt - 12 Imams or Imam alive now for Bahais.

The Bab didn't have an Ahlulbayt like the structure of guidance in Quran. Neither did Baha'allah. Instead you have this committee. Sorry, Ahlulbayt and chosen ones and the kings of God not supposed to replaced by some committee!

Have you researched Abdul Baha's comments in "Some Answered Questions" about the Book of Revelation where he says that the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar is the predicted time for the return of Christ? In there he also says the Muhammad and Ali are the "two witnesses" and that Muhammad, The Bab, and Baha'u'llah are the "Three Woes" of the Book of Revelation? If you have, could you comment on them?