Why I didn't believe in Bahaism when I researched it.

[stvdv]

To be honest, the Quran only said Mohammad is the Seal of Prophets once, because God realized, this is going to be controversial

It's the chapter, you have to be familiar with Quran. All major controversial issues is in Chapter 33.

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I can not imagine God to say it in this way.
This seems to me a human interpretation of what God is thinking (which I can not).
Seems not something which God would ever share with us. But, please prove me wrong

So, please tell me, which Koran verse tells us:
"I, Allah, only said 'Muhammad is the Seal of Prophets once', because 'I, Allah, realized this is going to be controversial'."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks for the correction, however, the succession stopped.

It has not stopped. Baha'u'llah's Covenant appoints the Universal House of Justice with infallible guidance. This is sealed in the writings, it is the Day not to be followed by night.

Regards Tony

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

IMHO: The Maitreya, introduced by Benjamin Creme I believe, is a beautiful concept. But for so many decades they claim "this and that will happen" etc, but still we are waiting. One thing I know, B.C is an artist. So IMHO, this is just his "Master Piece". I can't prove it of course, just my guess. Time will tell. I hope I am wrong. Would be nice to have such a powerful Avatar as the Maitreya on earth (when I am also on earth). Benjamin Creme was very generous complimenting my Master, I must say. He called my Master Cosmic Avatar, whereas Maitreya is called Planetary Avatar. Personally I am not a fan of this "Mine is bigger than yours" concept. They give everyone a number from 1 to 10 or something like that. I think that is not a healthy approach to reach World Peace. But that is just my personal opinion. Hence I stay far away from Benjamin Creme and his concept.

Do you believe only maitreya will come or do you believe the other things that come with him also came already?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

He has his play of words, just like Bahais have their play of words about seal of Prophets. My point is when you twist words, you can make anything mean anything, I would see Maitreya's interpretation of it, it was very clever I must say. Just as dishonest as Baha'allahs play of words with Seal of Prophets to mean every Prophet is each other, but, none the less, if they are consistent, with their philosophy that we leave clear impressions, then that verse is a trial for them, and they ought to follow what the Maitreya says regarding it.

It's quite simple, I'm arguing by analogy.

Qur’an 7:35-36 "Children of Adam! If there should come to you Messengers from among you, relating to you My signs, then whosoever is godfearing and makes amends—no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow. And those that cry lies to Our signs, and wax proud against them—those shall be the inhabitants of the Fire, therein dwelling forever."

" Company of jinn and mankind, did not Messengers come to you from among you, relating to you My signs and warning you of the encounter of this your day?’ They shall say, ‘We bear witness against ourselves.’ – Qur’an 6:130

Thus a seal is used to stamp a document and ensure it is not opened and tampered with until the document is opened by the one it is addressed to. Muhammad was the seal to the Quran and the recipient who can open that seal is the next Messenger, which was the Bab, then Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Link

This hadith also indicates, Muhammad is not the final messenger, just as Ali is not the final guardian:

“Once we came to Amirul Momineen (a.s.). We were five persons and I
was the youngest. I heard him say: “My brother, the messenger of Allah, has
said to me: “I am the last of a thousand prophets and you are the last of a
thousand guardians. I have been entrusted with what they have not been
entrusted with.”

And another Hadith from Imam Ali shows, seal cannot mean final:


"Listen, O people, ask whatever you want, before you don’t find me;
because I am more aware of the paths of the heavens more than the paths of
the earth. I am the leader of faith and the aim of the former ones. I am the
tongue of pious and the seal of the successors. I am the heir of the prophets
and caliph of the Lord of the Worlds"


Can seal of successors mean, final successor? I thought Shias believe Ali is the first successor. I think you need to first explain what does it mean, Ali is seal of successors.

Here is a Hadith that exactly and actually explains why Myhammad is called Seal of Prophets:


ولم يجز لنبي نبوة حتى يأخذ خاتما من محمد فلذلك سمي خاتم النبيين ، محمد سيد النبيين وأنا سيد الوصيين"

بحار الأنوار - ط دارالاحیاء التراث - العلامة المجلسي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

Imam Ali has said, "The permission of Prophecy was not given to a Prophet unless he received a Seal (Khatam) from Muhammad, and thus [for this reason ] He is named the Seal of Prophets. Muhammad is the Master of the Prophets and I am the Master of the Successors."




I think these are enough to make things clear.

 

[firedragon]

Qur’an 7:35-36 "Children of Adam! If there should come to you Messengers from among you, relating to you My signs, then whosoever is godfearing and makes amends—no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow. And those that cry lies to Our signs, and wax proud against them—those shall be the inhabitants of the Fire, therein dwelling forever."

" Company of jinn and mankind, did not Messengers come to you from among you, relating to you My signs and warning you of the encounter of this your day?’ They shall say, ‘We bear witness against ourselves.’ – Qur’an 6:130

Thus a seal is used to stamp a document and ensure it is not opened and tampered with until the document is opened by the one it is addressed to. Muhammad was the seal to the Quran and the recipient who can open that seal is the next Messenger, which was the Bab, then Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

No. You got the idea all wrong. This seal is not an English seal, its an arabic meaning stemming from hatham. You got it absolutely wrong. You just cannot make this kind of interpretations from an English language perspective.

Also, are you saying that Bab or/and Bahaullah was a messenger or rasool?

 

[stvdv]

Do you believe only maitreya will come or do you believe the other things that come with him also came already?

Reading Benjamin Creme's book, I got the feeling "His Maitreya" story was not real. But sometimes I read things wrong, so maybe he will come.
But as I do not believe in Benjamin Creme's story, I put the whole Maitreya story aside, together with "other things" you asked about. Nowadays many so called Prophets stand up. I rather stick to the ancient ones, who have proven themselves to be valuable for so many centuries.

 

[firedragon]

@Link

This hadith also indicates, Muhammad is not the final messenger, just as Ali is not the final guardian:

“Once we came to Amirul Momineen (a.s.). We were five persons and I
was the youngest. I heard him say: “My brother, the messenger of Allah, has
said to me: “I am the last of a thousand prophets and you are the last of a
thousand guardians. I have been entrusted with what they have not been
entrusted with.”

And another Hadith from Imam Ali shows, seal cannot mean final:


"Listen, O people, ask whatever you want, before you don’t find me;
because I am more aware of the paths of the heavens more than the paths of
the earth. I am the leader of faith and the aim of the former ones. I am the
tongue of pious and the seal of the successors. I am the heir of the prophets
and caliph of the Lord of the Worlds"


Can seal of successors mean, final successor? I thought Shias believe Ali is the first successor. I think you need to first explain what does it mean, Ali is seal of successors.

Think and respond.

Whats the dating of this hadith?

 

[firedragon]

Reading Benjamin Creme's book, I got the feeling "His Maitreya" story was not real. But sometimes I read things wrong, so maybe he will come.
But as I do not believe in Benjamin Creme's story, I put the whole Maitreya story aside, together with "other things" you asked about. Nowadays many so called Prophets stand up. I rather stick to the ancient ones, who have proven themselves to be valuable for so many centuries.

I asked about maitreya, not what Benjamin Creme wrote. If he was right, Matreya came in the 80's. Maitreya according to Buddhist scripture. And by "other things" i meant all the things that come with maitreya, according to the Buddhist scripture.

Again, Do you believe only maitreya will come or do you believe the other things that come with him also came already?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Everything you said is true, except that "they are One" is misquoting the Quran. I say that again,

Just to make sure that you understand what i say i will cut and paste my comment again.

""No. It doesnt say "the prophets are one". Thats misquoting the Quran. When you say bayna ahadhin, it means anyone of them, that means there are many, but we dont make discrimination towards one or the other.

That doesnt mean they are all one person. Farak or farakwaa in a sentence means you didnt assist or help as in lets say afarakwaa ibidhahum.

You have directly misquoted the Quran brother. Its an extremely simple sentence.""

I believe it simply comes down to understanding or misunderstanding what is meant by the word oneness. It is a word with multiple meanings and doesn’t necessarily mean the one and the same.

Oneness

noun
1/ the fact or state of being unified or whole, though comprised of two or more parts."the oneness of all suffering people"

2/ the fact or state of being one in number."holding to the oneness of God the Father as the only God"

From Oxford

oneness meaning - Google Search

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No. You got the idea all wrong. This seal is not an English seal, its an arabic meaning stemming from hatham. You got it absolutely wrong. You just cannot make this kind of interpretations from an English language perspective.

Also, are you saying that Bab or/and Bahaullah was a messenger or rasool?

I acknowledge your right to see the word in the light you have chosen, I see it as Baha'u'llah has explained it does mean.

Khatam an-Nabiyyin - Wikipedia

There is enough alternate thought posted at that link, which would support what Baha'u'llah offered that could be considered over mainstream thought. History has proven that it is not mainstream thought, that first embraces God's new Messengers.

Yes, both the Bab and Baha'u'llah are seen by me as Messengers. I see this is the age of fulfilling all Prophecies given up to and including Muhammad.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

I believe its simply comes down to understanding or misunderstanding what is meant by the word oneness. It is a word with multiple meanings and doesn’t necessarily mean the one and the same.

Oneness

noun
1/ the fact or state of being unified or whole, though comprised of two or more parts."the oneness of all suffering people"

2/ the fact or state of being one in number."holding to the oneness of God the Father as the only God"

From Oxford

oneness meaning - Google Search

Great. Since the Quran doesnt say one, there is no need to say one at all. What ever it may mean to you. Its misquoting.

 

[firedragon]

I acknowledge your right to see the word in the light you have chosen, I see it as Baha'u'llah has explained it does mean.

Khatam an-Nabiyyin - Wikipedia

There is enough alternate thought posted at that link, which would support what Baha'u'llah offered that could be considered over mainstream thought. History has proven that it is not mainstream thought, that first embraces God's new Messengers.

Yes, both the Bab and Baha'u'llah are seen by me as Messengers. I see this is the age of fulfilling all Prophecies given up to and including Muhammad.

Regards Tony

Ive read it.

But it still is a Fusha al Turat meaning that matters. Its important to make that distinction.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks for the correction, however, the succession stopped. This while the magic number for Successors in an Ahlulbayt chosen by God to the founder is always Twelve.

The succession continued with the Hand of the Cause of whom there were 27 when Shoghi Effendi passed away in 1957.

Hands of the Cause - Wikipedia

The succession continues to this day with the election of the Universal House of Justice.

Universal House of Justice - Wikipedia

The Universal House of Justice derives its authority from the pen of Bahá’u’lláh Himself.

What happened after Muhammad passed away? His wishes were usurped by Abu Bakr and Umar. Besides the 12 Imams were not appointed by Muhammad, only Ali.

Why do you believe the Mahdi would need to appoint twelve successors?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ive read it.

But it still is a Fusha al Turat meaning that matters. Its important to make that distinction.

Just so you know, I mark these posts for a lot of people as 'optomistic', as from my view I see a person has chosen to pursue and interpretation, over that of what Messenger from God has offered for us to consider.

Peace be with you and all, Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Baha'allah did the same with Bab's limitation of 1000 years, by the way. And so I find Ironic Maitreya has his own play of words for Baha'allahs "whoever interprets beyond the clear impression..." and uses to his advantage.

Where did the Bab specify a limitation of 1000 years?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Great. Since the Quran doesnt say one, there is no need to say one at all. What ever it may mean to you. Its misquoting.

The Quran doesn’t say a lot of things. How could it? It was composed in the seventh century. That is why both elaboration and further Revelation are necessary Imho.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm saying applying to the expression "and the seal of the Prophets" is ridiculous. And mixing expressions all up, is not something to be done with either Quran or hadiths.

Do you believe Jesus was the Alpha and Omega?

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Quran is a high masterpiece from God, even Bahais and their chosen leaders like Shokh Efendi would say, it's eloquence is not to be compared to Baha'i writing, and that Quran is superior in this respect.

But Quran says if he replaces a proof by a proof or guidance by guidance, be brings something similar or better. He did neither with Bahai texts, the eloquence of Quran is another plain even according to Baha'i founding leaders!

I wonder if what you mean is the Bible is not to be compared to the Quran?

In regards a comparison of the Quran and Baha’i Writings:

"They must...approach reverently and with a mind purged from preconceived ideas the study of the Qur'án which, apart from the sacred scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá'í Revelations, constitutes the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God."(Shoghi Effendi, Advent of Divine Justice, p. 49)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ive read it.

But it still is a Fusha al Turat meaning that matters. Its important to make that distinction.

To me this explains an important aspect of the oneness of God and how we come to it;

39:23. "Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah's praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide........"

The following passages in the same chapter to me talk about the day of judgement, when we have the arrival of the Bab and Baha'u'llah in these passages (Green highlight);

"........68. The Trumpet will (just) be sounded, when all that are in the heavens and on earth will swoon, except such as it will please Allah (to exempt). Then will a second one be sounded, when behold, they will be standing and looking on! (Bab and Baha'u'llah the Two Trumpets)
69. And the Earth will shine with the glory of its Lord (Baha'u'llah): the Record (of Deeds) will be placed (open); the prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward: and a just decision pronounced between them; and they will not be wronged (in the least)...."

Thus to me Baha'u'llah has brought the prophets all forward and show us they are one and all the Messengers from God and the witnesses to them, they can no longer be wronged.

This verse to me even talks about the Declaration of Baha'u'llah in the garden of Ridvan outside Baghdad'

73. " And those who feared their Lord will be led to the Garden in crowds: until behold, they arrive there; its gates will be opened: and its Keepers will say: "Peace be upon you! Well have ye done! Enter ye here, to dwell therein."

To which the chapter finishes with this great announcement;

75. And thou wilt see the angels surrounding the Throne (Divine) on all sides, singing Glory and Praise to their Lord. The Decision between them (at Judgement) will be in (perfect) justice. And the cry (on all sides) will be, "Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!"

Regards Tony