Why I didn't believe in Bahaism when I researched it.

[TransmutingSoul]

Very good. No distinction between any of the messengers. Thats quoting the Quran. Then are you saying the Quranic versionn of Islam is "THE ISLAM"? Then quote the Quran.

Islam is Submission unto the Will of God. I am saying the Quran as explained by Baha'u'llah is God's Will for this age and true Islam now lays in submission to that Will.

I appreciate you do not see it that way.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

What do you mean by prophet, since the last book, the book of revelation is a prophecy written by John (according to Christians) who was a Jew and that prophecy would have been sent to christians and told to Jews who werent Christian yet. It would best be said that Jesus was the last prophet sent exclusively to the Jews.

By prophet do you mean the manifestation of God? Because i think what you mean by prophet isnt what Christians mean by a prophet. So i think I understand what you mean but you maybe not using the write word or phrase for it.

I am using Islamic terminology in the sense of Prophets (Nabi) and Messengers (Rasool). So in post #709 I make the distinction between the two. Baha’i terminology uses Manifestations of God which would be similar to Rasool. Christians would see minor and major Prophets and then Christ being exalted above them all as Son of God, even God incarnate. They would not see Moses and Christ as having a similar station. Yet through Moses Yahweh brought the Torah and through Jesus the Gospel. The Jews are under the shadow of Moses as Christians are with Christ.

You are correct in regards John of Patmos being a Prophet though for the Christians, not Jews. He of course was under the shadow of Christ as were all the Apostles. Manifestations of God are still Prophets but are much more.

As per the link I gave, God himself is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. Traditionally it is in reference to His eternal nature. Only God and Jesus are considered the Alpha and Omega in the Bible, so they both are a beginning and an end of something.

I agree the Alpha and Omega refer to both God and Christ.

What do you mean by "God revealed himself to man in his fullest complete measure"?

Did the Gospel exceed what had previously been Revealed through the Torah? I would argue most definitely. That is what I meant.

 

[Dawnofhope]

No. It doesnt say "the prophets are one". Thats misquoting the Quran. When you say bayna ahadhin, it means anyone of them, that means there are many, but we dont make discrimination towards one or the other.

That doesnt mean they are all one person. Farak or farakwaa in a sentence means you didnt assist or help as in lets say afarakwaa ibidhahum.

You have directly misquoted the Quran brother. Its an extremely simple sentence.

You’re taking me literally as Link takes Bahá’u’lláh’s verses about the Prophets all being One literally. Of course they are not one and the same. However they derive their inspiration from the One source. Through Them God’s Guidance to humanity is perfected. So in the realm of distinction they are One as no distinction is to be made between them.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm still waiting for an explanation of the line in Du'a Nudba "there is no Prophet after me"

I think I see where you are going with this. As you probably know, the prayer of Du’a Nudba appears twice in the Kitab-i-Iqan. However, its important to consider the context in which it was revealed. It was in response to questions by a maternal uncle to the Bab so within a Shi’i Islam context. Baha'u'llah refers to the Prayer of Nudbih on two occasions in the Iqan:

1/ The term "suns" hath many a time been applied in the writings of the "immaculate Souls" unto the Prophets of God, those luminous Emblems of Detachment. Among those writings are the following words recorded in the "Prayer of Nudbih":[1] Whither are gone the resplendent Suns? Whereunto have departed those shining Moons and sparkling Stars?" Thus, it hath become evident that the terms "sun," "moon," and "stars" primarily signify the Prophets of God, the saints, and their companions, those Luminaries, the light of Whose knowledge hath shed illumination upon the worlds of the visible and the invisible.

[1] Lamentation" attributed to the Twelfth Imam.

In another sense, by these terms is intended the divines of the former Dispensation, who live in the days of the subsequent Revelations, and who hold the reins of religion in their grasp. If these divines be illumined by the light of the latter Revelation they will be acceptable unto God, and will shine with a light everlasting.

Otherwise, they will be declared as darkened, even though to outward seeming they be leaders of men, inasmuch as belief and unbelief, guidance and error, felicity and misery, light and darkness, are all dependent upon the sanction of Him Who is the Day-star of Truth. Whosoever among the divines of every age receiveth, in the Day of Reckoning, the testimony of faith from the Source of true knowledge, he verily becometh the recipient of learning, of divine favour, and of the light of true understanding.

Otherwise, he is branded as guilty of folly, denial, blasphemy, and oppression. It is evident and manifest unto every discerning observer that even as the light of the star fadeth before the effulgent splendour of the sun, so doth the luminary of earthly knowledge, of wisdom, and understanding vanish into nothingness when brought face to face with the resplendent glories of the Sun of Truth, the Day-star of divine enlightenment.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 36)

also the Prayer of Nudbih is again cited in the Iqan as follows:

2. Among the utterances that foreshadow a new Law and a new Revelation are the passages in the "Prayer of Nudbih":

"Where is He Who is preserved to renew the ordinances and laws? Where is He Who hath the authority to transform the Faith and the followers thereof?"

He hath, likewise, revealed in the Ziyarat:[1]

"Peace be upon the Truth made new."

Abu-'Abdi'llah, questioned concerning the character of the Mihdi, answered saying:

"He will perform that which Muhammad, the Messenger of God, hath performed, and will demolish whatever hath been before Him even as the Messenger of God hath demolished the ways of those that preceded Him."

[1] Visiting Tablet revealed by Ali.

Behold, how, notwithstanding these and similar traditions, they idly contend that the laws formerly revealed, must in no wise be altered. And yet, is not the object of every Revelation to effect a transformation in the whole character of mankind, a transformation that shall manifest itself both outwardly and inwardly, that shall affect both its inner life and external conditions?

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 239)

These citations and interpretations were provided to the maternal uncle of the Bab in a language he could understand.

 

[firedragon]

You’re taking me literally as Link takes Bahá’u’lláh’s verses about the Prophets all being One literally. Of course they are not one and the same. However they derive their inspiration from the One source. Through Them God’s Guidance to humanity is perfected. So in the realm of distinction they are One as no distinction is to be made between them.

Everything you said is true, except that "they are One" is misquoting the Quran. I say that again,

Just to make sure that you understand what i say i will cut and paste my comment again.

""No. It doesnt say "the prophets are one". Thats misquoting the Quran. When you say bayna ahadhin, it means anyone of them, that means there are many, but we dont make discrimination towards one or the other.

That doesnt mean they are all one person. Farak or farakwaa in a sentence means you didnt assist or help as in lets say afarakwaa ibidhahum.

You have directly misquoted the Quran brother. Its an extremely simple sentence.""

 

[firedragon]

Islam is Submission unto the Will of God. I am saying the Quran as explained by Baha'u'llah is God's Will for this age and true Islam now lays in submission to that Will.

I appreciate you do not see it that way.

Regards Tony

Great. Thanks.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Baha'allah offspring disbelieved in him. He had no relatives to succeed him. His relatives didn't believe in him.

What!?
Bahá’u’lláh’s eldest son ‘Abdu’l-Bahá was appointed successor in His Will and Testament. After that ‘Abdu’l-Bahá appointed his eldest grandson Shoghi Effendi to be leader after that. So from when Bahá’u’lláh had His first intimation of being the Manifestation of God for this day in the Siyah during 1852 until Shoghi Effendi’s passing in 1957, we have over a hundred years of the Prophets family providing Guidance to a united Baha’i community free from schism.

Síyáh-Chál - Wikipedia

 

[stvdv]

God says it, and it means that.

I agree to disagree on this one

No need to discuss this anymore
Allah will inform us about the verses we differ

 

[stvdv]

Whatever is given by God is perfect

At the condition it's really from God.

IMO:
Whatever is given by God = it's really from God

Do you see a difference between:
1) Given by God
2) Really from God

 

[firedragon]

I agree to disagree on this one

No need to discuss this anymore
Allah will inform us about the verses we differ

Its already said plain and clear brother. Just that one has to develop an empathy towards a language simply to even try to understand how that language thinks. Yet it seems no one has that kind of patience.

Have a great day. Peace.

 

[stvdv]

Brother. You doing exactly that. You are making assumptions about God.

I make assumptions as an opinion using IMHO

You make claims, even violating RF Rules thereby

Spoiler: Examples:

Yes, I have 1 assumption:
Hypothetically IF God exists (which I can't prove), having all these omnis
THEN I can not have assumptions about what God will or will not do next

I can also not predict the future (that is also an assumption I have)

I take utmost care to phrase my posts as "opinion", using "might", "Hypothetically", "I don't know for sure", "IMHO", "I believe", "I think" etc

You phrase your reply below as a claim (fact).

Seal of Prophets might mean "no more Prophets will come"
But it also might mean something different. Only God knows
I do not know. Humans can only speculate about God IMO

God says it, and it means that.

You make a claim here, which feels not right.
1) It is a "belief system", even if you wish it to be a "fact system"
2) It violates RF Rules

Just add "in my humble opinion", and you won't hear me complain at all.

That is where we differ. I only defend my view, telling "you have no right to impose your view as a claim on me".

Just use "in my opinion". Claiming your Religious Scripture as the Truth easily feels belittling to other's faith. World Peace might start, when Dharma is followed.

 

[Link]

Are you saying the Quran is ridiculous? The Quran clearly confirms the Prophets are One and no distinction should be made between them.

Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
3:84

I'm saying applying to the expression "and the seal of the Prophets" is ridiculous. And mixing expressions all up, is not something to be done with either Quran or hadiths.

 

[Link]

Good question. I am always fine with challenging and fair questions.
We will look at various Hadithes.

First, we can only accept hadithes which are compatible with Quran. Hadith authenticity must be weighed against Quran, by finding parallels with a verse.
Here are some hadithes related to this discussion:


The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another prophet succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me.
(Bukhari)

So, the above Hadith which says no prophet after Muhammad is about successorship. Because it is making a comparison with prophets of Israel, who were successors of Moses. It is an authentic hadith, as Quran confirms prophets of Israel as successors of Moses.


Here is another Hadith:

You (Hazrat Ali) are related to me as Aaron was related to Moses (pbuh). But no Apostle will come after me.
(Bukhari, Muslim)

The above Hadith is about immediate successorship, for it is making comparison to Moses and Aaron who lived in the same time. Likewise Muhammad and Ali.



Here are other Hadithes that is Not about immediate successorship, but we will see what they are about:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "My similitude in comparison with the other prophets before me, is that of a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick in a corner. The people go about it and wonder at its beauty, but say: 'Would that this brick be put in its place!' So I am that brick, and I am the last of the Prophets."


The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me.
(Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Anas bin Malik)



These Hadithes are talking about a chains of Messengers who started with Adam and ended with Muhammad. This hadith is likening creation of humanity as a building. It started with Adam and Ended.
This is known as the first creation in the Quran. But, since God is always a creator, after this first creation, He will start a later creation, which is stated in the Quran:


“Are We wearied out with the first creation? Yet are they in doubt with regard to a new creation!”


This verse tells us, that after first creation, there will be a new creation. This new creation, starts by the Qaim, who is a Messenger with a new Book according to traditions.

What is this new creation? In scriptures, it is known as creating of a new earth. How a new earth looks like, it is in this verse:


“Know that Allah gives life to the earth after its death; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you that you may understand.” (Surah Hadid 57:17)

In Ghaibat of Shaykh Tusi through the same chain of narration from Ibne Abbas about the verse it is narrated that he said: “It means that the earth will be restituted through the Qaim of Aale Muhammad (a.s.) after its death, that is, after the inequity of its rulers. We explained to you the signs, through the Qaim of Aale Muhammad (a.s.), so perhaps you may understand.”

So, based on the above hadithes, there was a first creation of earth, which is likened to a building block. Muhammad was the last brick of this first creation. Then Allah sends Qaim, for creation of a new earth. In another words, Muhammad was the Last Messenger of the first creation! The new creation has it's own Messengers, beginning with the Qaim.

There are many hadiths saying there is Twelve Leaders after Mohammad, and the twelfth being the Qaim. And many stating the twelfth being the Mahdi.

But aside from that, I see you acknowledge the Twelfth while before you would were saying Imam Mahdi was never born, and it was the Bab. At the very least you agree the Twelve Successors are not Anbiya.

So if Imam Mahdi was born, and the twelve successors hadith refers to succession clearly as they do, then what is the role of that Imam. He was 3 when he disappeared and is yet to lead the people.

What is the purpose of him being born? Remember, you said when talking about successors, it's context of those who succeed him in succession, while the Bab and Baha'allah are Messengers in a new era and don't refer to his successors.

So again, what is the purpose of the twelfth successor?

 

[Link]

I make assumptions as an opinion using IMHO

You make claims, even violating RF Rules thereby

That is where we differ. You impose your view on me even. I only defend my view, telling "you have no right to impose your view as a claim on me".

I do my utmost best to phrase everything as my opinion. "you imposing" your view on me as a fact, is wrong. As it is an RF Rule.

Just use "in my opinion" instead of claiming your opinion as a fact (esp. when your claim belittles other's faith). Then there will be much more Peace in the world, as Dharma is followed.

It is a fact, if we go by what Bahais tell us is unclear about Seal of Prophets, then look at the Maitreya's interpretation of the verse Bahais use to conclude there won't be another Messenger for 1000 years. He has his own interpretation and also supports himself being prophesized through their texts. If Baha'is were consistent in their reasoning only a infallible has the right to interpret holy text - they would follow the Maitreya.

 

[Link]

What!?
Bahá’u’lláh’s eldest son ‘Abdu’l-Bahá was appointed successor in His Will and Testament. After that ‘Abdu’l-Bahá appointed his eldest grandson Shoghi Effendi to be leader after that. So from when Bahá’u’lláh had His first intimation of being the Manifestation of God for this day in the Siyah during 1852 until Shoghi Effendi’s passing in 1957, we have over a hundred years of the Prophets family providing Guidance to a united Baha’i community free from schism.

Síyáh-Chál - Wikipedia

Thanks for the correction, however, the succession stopped. This while the magic number for Successors in an Ahlulbayt chosen by God to the founder is always Twelve.

 

[stvdv]

You make claims, even violating RF Rules thereby

Just for clarity: "You" here is not @Link

It is a fact, if we go by what Bahais tell us is unclear about Seal of Prophets, then look at the Maitreya's interpretation of the verse Bahais use to conclude there won't be another Messenger for 1000 years. He has his own interpretation and also supports himself being prophesized through their texts. If Baha'is were consistent in their reasoning only a infallible has the right to interpret holy text - they would follow the Maitreya.

Also Bahais must follow the Rules and say it in a palatable way, like for example:
In my humble opinion, which has not been proven yet, as the 1000 years 'just' started "there won't be another Messenger for 1000 years"

I think you, @Link will have no problem if a Bahai would phrase it in the above way. Would you?

 

[Link]

Just for clarity: "You" here is not @Link


Also Bahais must follow the Rules and say:
In my humble opinion, which has not been proven yet, as the 1000 years 'just' started "there won't be another Messenger for 1000 years"

I think you, @Link will have no problem if a Bahai would phrase it in the above way. Would you?

He has his play of words, just like Bahais have their play of words about seal of Prophets. My point is when you twist words, you can make anything mean anything, I would see Maitreya's interpretation of it, it was very clever I must say. Just as dishonest as Baha'allahs play of words with Seal of Prophets to mean every Prophet is each other, but, none the less, if they are consistent, with their philosophy that we leave clear impressions, then that verse is a trial for them, and they ought to follow what the Maitreya says regarding it.

It's quite simple, I'm arguing by analogy.

 

[stvdv]

He has his own interpretation and also supports himself being prophesized through their texts. If Baha'is were consistent in their reasoning only a infallible has the right to interpret holy text - they would follow the Maitreya.

Good point.

If people make claims they better be 100% sure, else they have to admit later on they were wrong, say "sorry" (problematic for many)
Hence I love RF for having this particular RF Rule. It's the best. If all follow this RF Rule, we might have much more Peace on RF

 

[Link]

In my humble opinion, which has not been proven yet, as the 1000 years 'just' started

Baha'allah did the same with Bab's limitation of 1000 years, by the way. And so I find Ironic Maitreya has his own play of words for Baha'allahs "whoever interprets beyond the clear impression..." and uses to his advantage.

 

[stvdv]

Maitreya's interpretation

He has his own interpretation and also supports himself being prophesized through their texts. If Baha'is were consistent in their reasoning only a infallible has the right to interpret holy text - they would follow the Maitreya.

IMHO: The Maitreya, introduced by Benjamin Creme I believe, is a beautiful concept. But for so many decades they claim "this and that will happen" etc, but still we are waiting. One thing I know, B.C is an artist. So IMHO, this is just his "Master Piece". I can't prove it of course, just my guess. Time will tell. I hope I am wrong. Would be nice to have such a powerful Avatar as the Maitreya on earth (when I am also on earth). Benjamin Creme was very generous complimenting my Master, I must say. He called my Master Cosmic Avatar, whereas Maitreya is called Planetary Avatar. Personally I am not a fan of this "Mine is bigger than yours" concept. They give everyone a number from 1 to 10 or something like that. I think that is not a healthy approach to reach World Peace. But that is just my personal opinion. Hence I stay far away from Benjamin Creme and his concept.