Why I didn't believe in Bahaism when I researched it.

[stvdv]

I see each level of Spirit has its own Essence, the essential qualities. Thus within the animal kingdom we can see what are the essential qualities of each mineral and animal.

We then have the Human spirit and the essential qualities are that of virtue. We can not know of the Essence above us, thus the mineral and animal can not know the Human and likewise the human can not grasp the Spirit of Faith (connects us to the Messenger) and the Holy Spirit which is the Messenger (connects us to God), levels above us. Imagine God is even beyond the understanding of the Messengers, but they are all we can know of God, they are the cause of our creation.

I see the Messenger, the Holy Spirit emanates from God and we emanate from the messenger, only to the degree we embrace them and mirror their teachings.

It is a big topic. Regards Tony

Thank you for your explanation. Very clear in just a few lines. Well done. Good to understand each other's views when communicating.

Humans can behave like animals, or they can choose to lift themselves up and reach for the humane qualities or even connect to the Divine.

 

[stvdv]

Baha'u'llah has taken miracles away as proof. In this age they are no longer used as proof.

Now we have the greatest illusionists the world has ever seen, the wisdom of not using miracles is now very plain for all to see.
Regards Tony

Yes. I watched some illusionists on America Got Talent. It's incredible how they fool the public and me also. And then photoshop added. Use miracles as proof, is indeed not working in this age, unless maybe you are a magician yourself and can distinguish real miracle from your own fake ones.

Although if you can do "real miracles" as a Messenger, then the first miracle could be to "disable magicians doing theirs".

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You are quoting bihar alanwar. Brother, this is a collection of ahadith that is pertaining to the Shii theology. So you quoting this as "fundamental teaching of religion" you are making an absurd statement.

You are quoting a 17th century writing and you claim this is fundamental Islam? Not really. It maybe important to 10% of Muslims. So you cant make that kind of general sweeping statement, that too, claiming someone else is uninformed in theology.

Before doing that did you analyse what you are quoting?

Tell me brother, what is the difference between alhasaa and dharaar? What is the negative criticism of Majlisi, the authors Thareek or system used in this humungous work?

Also, even in this hadith you are quoting you have completely misquoted it. It doesnt mean that the Qaim (Which most dont believe in though you seem to believe its fundamental), is not claiming to be physically all of these names mentioned in it. He is saying that "Listening to him is the same as listening to all of them because he will speak of all things that was informed by all of those mentioned in the hadith". He will also claim that he will tell you what these people quoted did not say. Because he will have the knowledge of all of them. That does not mean he is and was the same persons. Thats evident in the simple last sentence in this hadith.

Peace.

Why are you interpreting the Hadith? You are making it say, what you want it to say! It is clear what it says. And here is an equivalent verse of Quran:


"But those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, unto them Allah will give their wages; and Allah was ever Forgiving, Merciful" 4:125

Do not interpret this verse and tell us what it means. It is a clear verse, everyone can read it!

 

[Link]

So the interpretation of "there is no Prophet after me" is "there is no Prophet after me" (in my nation) or (among my twelve successors)?

Why didn't the Prophet say this? Why didn't he just say the additional words?

 

[Link]

Why are you interpreting the Hadith? You are making it say, what you want it to say! It is clear what it says. And here is an equivalent verse of Quran:


"But those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, unto them Allah will give their wages; and Allah was ever Forgiving, Merciful" 4:125

Do not interpret this verse and tell us what it means. It is a clear verse, everyone can read it!

Yes that verse is clear, and supports "where is Al-Hassan, where is Al-Hussain.." type meaning, but the verse of seal of the Prophets is a different expression.

 

[Link]

But He did not say Quran is final revelation. So, why you want to put words in the mouth of Allah? Are you not confidence in Allah?

What difference would it make. A fake Prophet can say he alone knows it's proper interpretation and then tell us "final revelation" means this and that, like you did with "there is no Prophet after me". He can say it means final revelation in this nation but not that another revelation cannot come AFTER twelve Successors, like you interpreted.

In fact, there is another Prophet that claims to believe in Baha'allah and has his own interpretation of the verse that is seen to say another can't come for 1000 years. By your logic, you should believe in the Matriya, since only he can know the interpretation of that verse and explain it to humanity!

 

[Link]

By your logic, we should all now follow: StackPath

 

[stvdv]

"And our master, Imam Qaim (a.s.) would be standing, resting his back to
the Kaaba. And he will say: O people, whoever wants to see Adam and
Sheeth, should know that I am Adam and Sheeth. And whoever wants to see
Nuh and his son, Saam, should know that I am that same Nuh and Saam. And
whoever wants to see Ibrahim and Ismail, should know that I am that same
Ibrahim and Ismail. And whoever wants to see Musa and Yusha, should know
that I am that same Musa and Yusha. And whoever wants to see Isa and
Shamoun, should know that I am that same Isa and Shamoun. And whoever
wants to see Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) and Amirul Momineen, should know that I
am that same Muhammad and Amirul Momineen. And whoever wants to see
Hasan and Husain, should know that I am that same Hasan and Husain. And
whoever wants to see the Imams from the progeny of Husain, should know
that I am those same purified Imams. Accept my call and gather near me as I
would inform you about all that has been said and all that has not been said.”

This tradition tells us, All Prophets are the same, and coming of the Qaim, is just as coming All of them.

Those are the ones I like. I recognize the Ancient Wisdom to see the Divine in all. Seeking Peace instead of War.

"But those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, unto them Allah will give their wages; and Allah was ever Forgiving, Merciful" 4:125

Do not interpret this verse and tell us what it means. It is a clear verse, everyone can read it!

Thank you. Another favorite of mine.

Reminds me of this verse from the Koran 5:32
Arberry: Therefore We prescribed for the Children of Israel that whoso slays a soul not to retaliate for a soul slain, nor for corruption done in the land, shall be as if he had slain mankind altogether; and whoso gives life to a soul, shall be as if he ha given life to mankind altogether. Our Messengers have already come to them with the clear signs; then many of them thereafter commit excesses in the earth.

 

[stvdv]

What difference would it make. A fake Prophet can say he alone knows it's proper interpretation and then tell us "final revelation" means this and that, like you did with "there is no Prophet after me". He can say it means final revelation in this nation but not that another revelation cannot come AFTER twelve Successors, like you interpreted.

Do you believe, that a "Real Prophet" would create anger and hate (starting with irritation to belittle previous faiths, which others still follow)? I think the problem is that a Prophet says many things. So I think, that one should know EVERYTHING He said, simultaneously, and then reply in such away, that all His Teachings are followed.

Example: Bible says "Love thy neighbor as thyself" + "Go out to evangelize".
How to not create irritation is simple in this example. You can do both. Go out and wait till the people come to you, don't go to them, because you don't want, as a Christian, that mr.X tells you "Believing in Jesus will send you to Hell". So you also should not tell mr.X "not believing in Jesus will send you to Hell", unless mr.X is asking for it. Otherwise you act hypocritical.

Most people just take one Teaching and spread it around. That is how problems start. You can do it, but don't impose it on the other. Give as opinion. Only speak when you are spoken to also takes care of trouble (like on RF, we can reply to another OP, unless we have insufficient privilege

 

[Link]

Every Messenger has an Ahlulbayt, who is the Ahlulbayt of Baha'allah? I want you to think about how many verses in the Quran are devoted to this, in such a way, that there must be family of the reminder in all times.

Baha'allah offspring disbelieved in him. He had no relatives to succeed him. His relatives didn't believe in him.

While, God choosing from blood relatives and placing his chosen ones in people related by blood, has been a way of God, so as to reduce fake claimers of divine leadership, like Zakariya prays for Yahya due to his fear of those related to him those who inherit him by biological right, he was afraid they would oppose Jesus and snatch leadership, but if anyone can succeed, people totally not related, then his fear would not be there.

The fear was such that he prayed for Yahya, who have most right being his son as far as consistency from God. And Yahya (John) then prepared people for Jesus who was his cousin.

This was true of Abraham, with his nephew Lot, and chosen offspring Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc.... from Sarah.

It was true of the Aaron the brother of Moses and the offspring that were chosen from Aaron.

Not only that, but the number Twelve is highly important in Quran in this regard.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So the interpretation of "there is no Prophet after me" is "there is no Prophet after me" (in my nation) or (among my twelve successors)?

Why didn't the Prophet say this? Why didn't he just say the additional words?

Good question. I am always fine with challenging and fair questions.
We will look at various Hadithes.

First, we can only accept hadithes which are compatible with Quran. Hadith authenticity must be weighed against Quran, by finding parallels with a verse.
Here are some hadithes related to this discussion:


The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another prophet succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me.
(Bukhari)

So, the above Hadith which says no prophet after Muhammad is about successorship. Because it is making a comparison with prophets of Israel, who were successors of Moses. It is an authentic hadith, as Quran confirms prophets of Israel as successors of Moses.


Here is another Hadith:

You (Hazrat Ali) are related to me as Aaron was related to Moses (pbuh). But no Apostle will come after me.
(Bukhari, Muslim)

The above Hadith is about immediate successorship, for it is making comparison to Moses and Aaron who lived in the same time. Likewise Muhammad and Ali.



Here are other Hadithes that is Not about immediate successorship, but we will see what they are about:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "My similitude in comparison with the other prophets before me, is that of a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick in a corner. The people go about it and wonder at its beauty, but say: 'Would that this brick be put in its place!' So I am that brick, and I am the last of the Prophets."


The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me.
(Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Anas bin Malik)



These Hadithes are talking about a chains of Messengers who started with Adam and ended with Muhammad. This hadith is likening creation of humanity as a building. It started with Adam and Ended.
This is known as the first creation in the Quran. But, since God is always a creator, after this first creation, He will start a later creation, which is stated in the Quran:


“Are We wearied out with the first creation? Yet are they in doubt with regard to a new creation!”


This verse tells us, that after first creation, there will be a new creation. This new creation, starts by the Qaim, who is a Messenger with a new Book according to traditions.

What is this new creation? In scriptures, it is known as creating of a new earth. How a new earth looks like, it is in this verse:


“Know that Allah gives life to the earth after its death; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you that you may understand.” (Surah Hadid 57:17)

In Ghaibat of Shaykh Tusi through the same chain of narration from Ibne Abbas about the verse it is narrated that he said: “It means that the earth will be restituted through the Qaim of Aale Muhammad (a.s.) after its death, that is, after the inequity of its rulers. We explained to you the signs, through the Qaim of Aale Muhammad (a.s.), so perhaps you may understand.”

So, based on the above hadithes, there was a first creation of earth, which is likened to a building block. Muhammad was the last brick of this first creation. Then Allah sends Qaim, for creation of a new earth. In another words, Muhammad was the Last Messenger of the first creation! The new creation has it's own Messengers, beginning with the Qaim.

 

[Shad]

HI @Link
Its great you speak Arabic. I don't speak Arabic and rely on the English translations of which I include several for Quran 33:40:

Sahih International: Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.

Pickthall: Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

Yusuf Ali: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

Shakir: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.

Muhammad Sarwar: Muhammad is not the father of any of your males. He is the Messenger of God and the last Prophet. God has the knowledge of all things.

Mohsin Khan: Muhammad (SAW) is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the last (end) of the Prophets. And Allah is Ever AllAware of everything.

Arberry: Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but the Messenger of God, and the Seal of the Prophets; God has knowledge of everything.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Of course there is not a single English translation that says Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time. In plain English 'Seal of the Prophets' does not mean Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time. So it comes down to the Arabic and meanings of words that are not captured well with translation into another language.

As you speak Arabic then you may appreciate the use of the words Rasool and Nabi in regards the Quran generally and specifically verse 33:40. The reference to these two Arabic words appears highly relevant and their juxtaposition crucial not just to each other but to the phrase "I am not the father of mankind". One analysis considering Sura 33 as a whole could be in regards to Muhammad being sonless and how his marriage to Zaynab is perceived. However, I believe the phrase is an allusion to the Prophet Adam who was the Father of all mankind. So when Muhammad speaks of being the seal of the Prophets, He speaks of being the last of the lineage of Prophets (Nabi) from Adam to Himself. That makes sense historically because there have been no more Prophets of that lineage. However He does not claim to be the seal of the Messengers or Rasools.

So Muhammad being the seal of the Prophets clearly alludes to a lineage of Prophets from Adam to Muhammad. Baha’is call this the Adamic cycle which we believe ended with the advent of the Madhi (the Bab) during 1844. Baha'u'llah in His work the Kitab-i-Iqan alludes to with the phrase 'seal of the Prophets' and how the phrase is applicable to other Messengers/Rasool. This concept is clearly supported by Christian scripture. For example in the Book of Revelation 22:13 we have reference to Christ being the ‘Alpha and the Omega’, or the first and last letters of the Greek Alphabet. In that sense Christ is also the beginning and end and the seal of the Prophets as with Muhammad.

Last and final are synonymous in English

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes. I watched some illusionists on America Got Talent. It's incredible how they fool the public and me also. And then photoshop added. Use miracles as proof, is indeed not working in this age, unless maybe you are a magician yourself and can distinguish real miracle from your own fake ones.

Although if you can do "real miracles" as a Messenger, then the first miracle could be to "disable magicians doing theirs".

Just think, that is the miracle the Muslims could have asked for

Always a pleasure to chat with you.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

New Every Messenger has an Ahlulbayt, who is the Ahlulbayt of Baha'allah? I want you to think about how many verses in the Quran are devoted to this, in such a way, that there must be family of the reminder in all times.

Baha'u'llah left a written will and testament and the appointed Ahlulbayt was Abdul'baha, then Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Why are you interpreting the Hadith? You are making it say, what you want it to say! It is clear what it says. And here is an equivalent verse of Quran:


"But those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, unto them Allah will give their wages; and Allah was ever Forgiving, Merciful" 4:125

Do not interpret this verse and tell us what it means. It is a clear verse, everyone can read it!

Loool. Yes. No distinction. I didnt make any. So you should not make false accusations.

I asked you a question because you insult others saying they uneducated in islamic theology.Of course you have no clue thats why you didnt answer.

And i didnt interpret the hadith. I just read the last part which you hadnt.

 

[firedragon]

The Key here is to also consider it was the Last of the Messengers that were preparing humanity for the 'Day of God'. Thus Muhammad was the last, the seal, the final Messenger to prepare humanity for that "Day'.

You are adding that idea as a thesis. Its not said so in the Quran so not acceptable.

 

[firedragon]

This is okay, I agree with Bahais that chains are not a way to determine truth. But chains are useful sometimes and must be kept and it's good to get a study of rijaal just to know who is narrating what. But there is no way to know who is truthful or liar, by just trusting others to determine who is who for us.

I said nothing about chains brother. Nothing.

 

[firedragon]

Seal of Prophets might mean "no more Prophets will come"
But it also might mean something different. Only God knows
I do not know. Humans can only speculate about God IMO

God says it, and it means that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You are adding that idea as a thesis. Its not said so in the Quran so not acceptable.

Of course the Christian would offer that about anything Muhammad said about Jesus and the Bible, thus according to that criteria, it is not in the Bible and what Muhammad said is not acceptable.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Of course the Christian would offer that about anything Muhammad said about Jesus and the Bible, thus according to that criteria, it is not in the Bible and what Muhammad said is not acceptable.

Regards Tony

Great. But if you address the Quran, the merit is from the text. Not from what it doesnt say.