Inshallah bro, with that, I have to get off. Have an assignment due tomorrow, 11:59 pm. Got to get going.
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Why I didn't believe in Bahaism when I researched it.
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Inshallah bro, with that, I have to get off. Have an assignment due tomorrow, 11:59 pm. Got to get going.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
@Link
The word Khaatam is an ambiguous term, which can mean several things. When a verse, is ambiguous, it falls under category of the Mutishabihat, and thus none knows its interpretation except God and those who are well-grounded in knowledge. So, God must tell us if He intended ending revelation by this word. He would reveal it through the Qaim. Now, Bahaullah says, the Qaim has come and told you, it does not mean Revelation of God is ended forever.
This part of the Iqan, explains more:
"Even as thou dost witness how the people of the Qur’án, like unto the people of old, have allowed the words “Seal of the Prophets” to veil their eyes. And yet, they themselves testify to this verse: “None knoweth the interpretation thereof but God and they that are well-grounded in knowledge.”
And when He Who is well-grounded in all knowledge, He Who is the Mother, the Soul, the Secret, and the Essence thereof, revealeth that which is the least contrary to their desire, they bitterly oppose Him and shamelessly deny Him."
Moreover, Bahaullah explains that, everytime God sends a new Revelation, He ordained certain tests, that people need to pass from the tests in order to recognize a new Revelation. The test for Muslims is the term 'Seal' that God intentionally used in Quran to test them. I quote the Iqan:
"Notwithstanding the obviousness of this theme, in the eyes of those that have quaffed the wine of knowledge and certitude, yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term “Seal of the Prophets” to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! ..... The mystery of this theme hath, in this Dispensation, been a sore test unto all mankind. Behold, how many are those who, clinging unto these words, have disbelieved Him Who is their true Revealer. "
The word Khaatam is an ambiguous term, which can mean several things. When a verse, is ambiguous, it falls under category of the Mutishabihat, and thus none knows its interpretation except God and those who are well-grounded in knowledge. So, God must tell us if He intended ending revelation by this word. He would reveal it through the Qaim. Now, Bahaullah says, the Qaim has come and told you, it does not mean Revelation of God is ended forever.
This part of the Iqan, explains more:
"Even as thou dost witness how the people of the Qur’án, like unto the people of old, have allowed the words “Seal of the Prophets” to veil their eyes. And yet, they themselves testify to this verse: “None knoweth the interpretation thereof but God and they that are well-grounded in knowledge.”
And when He Who is well-grounded in all knowledge, He Who is the Mother, the Soul, the Secret, and the Essence thereof, revealeth that which is the least contrary to their desire, they bitterly oppose Him and shamelessly deny Him."
Moreover, Bahaullah explains that, everytime God sends a new Revelation, He ordained certain tests, that people need to pass from the tests in order to recognize a new Revelation. The test for Muslims is the term 'Seal' that God intentionally used in Quran to test them. I quote the Iqan:
"Notwithstanding the obviousness of this theme, in the eyes of those that have quaffed the wine of knowledge and certitude, yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term “Seal of the Prophets” to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! ..... The mystery of this theme hath, in this Dispensation, been a sore test unto all mankind. Behold, how many are those who, clinging unto these words, have disbelieved Him Who is their true Revealer. "
stvdv
Veteran Member
IMO:
That's True. It's good to trust your own conscience. And others should do that too. Best not to think for others and definitely not tell others what their Scripture means. I don't do that. But when they impose their interpretation on me, then I find "1001" other interpretations. I don't tell them they are wrong, but I show them "Don't tell me I am wrong".
I do like it when for example @firedragon or @Link correct my translations, or when they share with me how they interpret a verse. But if they impose a restricted claim on my faith, then I will not accept. Because that is not correct behavior. To share is good. To claim "I am wrong" is plain wrong. You can say IMHO you are wrong. But that's all. Only God knows which one is right (like in Koran verse 5:48). I might say "It feels wrong if you tell me my interpretation is wrong". Because that is the "job" of Allah (one of my favorite verses)
Maybe this is what it is all about between Bahai and Islam on RF all the time, with this debating stuff going on. verse 5:48 solves it for me. Better to strive as in a race in good deeds, then fight as in a race to win a debate. But that is my interpretation of the verse. For others debate is the way. I just feel no need to convince others of my belief. But I don't let them take mine away. So NOT "trusting others to determine who is who for us". I fully agree.
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Were you there, to be able to compare "ALL other Messengers", or is it "hearsay", or is it "clairvoyance", or might it be "wish fulfilling thinking"
It is logic based on what Baha'u'llah and the Bible offered.
One of the greatest proofs of a Messenger is that the Message is suited to the age and builds a civilisation based upon that word.
Knowing that, we can look back and study faiths founded by a Messenger and using what they offered in virtue based reasoning, we can thendetermine what is from God and what is most likely from man.
Regards Tony
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Those statements are about immediate successorship in Islam. In Judaism after Moses, the prophets became successors of Moses. Muhammad said, there is no prophets as successors. Because Muhammad successors are Imams, which has a greater station than the Prophets of Israel. Just refer to your hadithes.
You are confusing imidiate successorship with future revelations. There is not a verse, nor a hadith that days, the Quran is the final revelation. No Arabic hadith I mean. In English translations maybe, but if you look into Arabic Hadithes, there is no hadith or verse of Quran that says Quran is final revelation.
I am trying to help you out for better understanding of this subject, as I have investigated this matter deeply, and thoroughly.
Farther Bahaullah says:
"Furthermore, among the “veils of glory” are such terms as the “Seal of the Prophets” and the like, the removal of which is a supreme achievement in the sight of these base-born and erring souls. All, by reason of these mysterious sayings, these grievous “veils of glory,” have been hindered from beholding the light of truth. "
In Quran, it is written Allah comes on Resurrection Day, with many veils that does not allow many people see Him. Bahaullah revealed for us, one the greatest evils, is the term, seal of prophets, that cause people not to see the truth of a Manifestation of God.
Christ on the cross also said it was finished.
The Key here is to also consider it was the Last of the Messengers that were preparing humanity for the 'Day of God'. Thus Muhammad was the last, the seal, the final Messenger to prepare humanity for that "Day'.
The next Messengers were to be the Fulfilment of all those promises given and usher in the 'Day of God'.
Thus the Message of Baha'u'llah makes that now very clear, how the Messenger is the 'Self of God' amongst us, all the while not being God in Essence.
Baha'u'llah shows us the potential of the Light of God is within us all, but we can not be a Messenger and we cannot know God.
Regards Tony
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
You have to show where Bahaullah misinterpreted it! I am not saying you have to accept His explanation blindly. Here is your chance.
Just think about it. If you had confidence that Quran is word of Allah, you wouldn't doubt that, Allah knew one Day Bahaullah comes, and interprets "Seal of Prophets", other than finality of revelation. So, if Allah wanted to avoid someone to come and take advantage, why did He not use another word instead of Seal, which is ambiguous? Moreover, Allahm could have said in the Quran, this Quran is my final revelation, and if anyone claims He has come with a new Book from Me, he is a liar, and imposter. Allah could have said these things, so, no body could come and misguided or trick you. But He did not say Quran is final revelation. So, why you want to put words in the mouth of Allah? Are you not confidence in Allah?
Baha'u'llah offers every Messenger is born of the Same Hoyy Spirit, not the same flesh.
The virgin birth in the Bible is the applicable Metephor.
Regards Tony
Baha'u'llah has offered that there is merit to that thought. The Key here is we will know them by their fruit.
A lot of inspiration is not directly from God, but from the Messengers. Those that get these inspirations, mostly find it hard to understand the source of their thoughts and mix their own.
Regards Tony
stvdv
Veteran Member
I think you missed my point. This is big time exaggeration. You MUST be omniscient+omnipresent to make such a claim, as per definition of any/ever
I do not think you claim to be omniscient. And I am pretty sure even Bahaullah never made such a claim. If He did, could you show me? If you make such a huge claim, you should be able to back it up by proof (that the proofs are more than ANY other....EVER...)
Logic"based on what they offered" seems to be proof to you, but is it the same as proof?
Sai Baba made 1 thing very clear. If you are on the Spiritual path you should NEVER lie. And He continued ... this includes "no exaggeration". Even if you love your Guru very much, do you think Bahaullah wants you to exaggerate?
That is exactly what the Bab and Baha'u'llah have done.
Exactly why they were persecuted.
Yet now around the world Baha'i embrace the Quran with the whole new level of understanding and respect for Muhammad and the Quran.
Regards Tony
stvdv
Veteran Member
Yes, that surprises me too. I love this kind of mystery, of wonder in the World. That makes the world so wonderful
Did you mean to say "Bahaullah gave more proof than Jesus, Krishna, Rama etc"?
I always consider all past Messengers have told us about this Day of God in one way or another.
Up to now a Messenger has never claimed to be the fulfilment of all that prophecy, the Bab and Baha'u'llah both have.
There are many quotes from both the Bab and Baha'u'llah on this matter.
A new thread would be required. This link will help.
prophecy-fulfilled
Regards Tony
I see that Jesus, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Muhammad, to name a few all foretold us of Baha'u'llah.
I see many others how we're not Messengers but Prophets also have done the same.
Regards Tony
stvdv
Veteran Member
The "Self of God" I can relate to from Advaita. The Self is the Essence. As in the quality not quantity. As in the drop compared to the ocean
Could you explain why you call it "all the while not being God in Essence". Maybe my idea of Essence is different.
stvdv
Veteran Member
Okay. You were talking about "giving proof to the world". I thought you meant that Bahaullah had done more miracles than Jesus, Krishna, Rama. Because I think you can't even compare these. Those are just Grace given. Like Jesus walking on water, I don't think Bahaullah did that? Or the amazing stories of Krishna, so many miracles. But you had probably something else in mind, when you talked about "giving proof to the world"
I see each level of Spirit has its own Essence, the essential qualities. Thus within the animal kingdom we can see what are the essential qualities of each mineral and animal.
We then have the Human spirit and the essential qualities are that of virtue. We can not know of the Essence above us, thus the mineral and animal can not know the Human and likewise the human can not grasp the Spirit of Faith (connects us to the Messenger) and the Holy Spirit which is the Messenger (connects us to God), levels above us. Imagine God is even beyond the understanding of the Messengers, but they are all we can know of God, they are the cause of our creation.
I see the Messenger, the Holy Spirit emanates from God and we emanate from the messenger, only to the degree we embrace them and mirror their teachings.
It is a big topic. Regards Tony
Baha'u'llah has taken miracles away as proof. All those that came into contact with Baha'u'llah are aware of the powers of a Messenger. In this age they are no longer used as proof.
Baha'u'llah offered to the all the divines of Persia that they choose a miracle that He would perform for them to prove the Faith, they could not bring themselves to choose one and did not take up the challenge. Now we have the greatest illusionists the world has ever seen, the wisdom of not using miracles is now very plain for all to see.
Regards Tony