Why I didn't believe in Bahaism when I researched it.

[TransmutingSoul]

Great. But if you address the Quran, the merit is from the text. Not from what it doesnt say.

It says what God means it to be. Christ said it is finished, so that is why Muhammad is rejected by the Christian.

John 19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Much the same comparison.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

It says what God means it to be. Christ said it is finished, so that is why Muhammad is rejected by the Christian.

John 19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Much the same comparison.

Regards Tony

Not relevant though to the Quran and what it says.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It's not a single verse, there's many.

We could debate those verses if you like brother. First let’s acknowledge this about the Baha’is. Baha’is recognise Muhammad as the Messenger of Allah (Praised be unto Him) and the Holy Quran as the ‘authenticated repository of the Word of God.’ The issue Muslims have with Baha’is is we recognise the Bab to be the Promised Qa’im or Mahdi and Bahá’u’lláh the Return of Christ. I believe that despite the Promise and the Signs of God being fulfilled the Baha’is have been true to Allah’s will while those who contend with such signs have turned their back on Allah Himself. These are my beliefs as you have yours. I have no desire to argue for according to Abdul-Bahá when two believers argue about religion, both are wrong.

3.85 And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

Islam means to submit to Allah. To recognise the Qa’im and follow His Teachings is to submit to Allah.

5.3 (...) This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. (...)

As it is said in the Holy Quran it is not enough to follow Muhammad but all the Prophets.

Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
3:84

28.48 But when the truth came to them from Us, they said, "Why was he not given like that which was given to Moses?" Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Moses before? They said, "[They are but] two works of magic supporting each other, and indeed we are, in both, disbelievers."

28.49 Say, "Then bring a scripture from Allah which is more guiding than either of them that I may follow it, if you should be truthful."

So we have Scriptures that are a Guidance from Allah? We must follow it.

You are following another Scripture meaning it's better than the Quran or the Quran is not complete.

The Quran was Revealed between 610-632 and concerned a peoples and time very different from today. The Baha’i Writings extends from 1844 to 1892 and concerns the time we live in today. As Bahá’u’lláh has said:

The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 213

So it is not a case of Baha’i Scriptures being better the the Quran. One Scriptures was for a bygone era, the other for today and beyond.

Salaam

 

[firedragon]

Islam means to submit to Allah. To recognise the Qa’im and follow His Teachings is to submit to Allah.

Which Islam? Im sure you understand the question.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I understand Alpha and Omega referring to divinity. But how did you come to the conclusion that it refers to God's revelation to man?

Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. After the Father sent His Prophets He finally sent His Son (Matthew 21:33-46).This was God’s last Prophet to the Jewish people according to the Christians. It is through Christ, the Alpha and the Omega that God Revealed Himself to man in His fullest complete measure. In that sense He was also the seal of the Prophets.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Which Islam? Im sure you understand the question.

There is only One Islam.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes. I like Scriptures to be simple. When there is need for debate on verses, I skip those verses.
And also, IF it's from God and meant to be useful for all humanity, then I expect it to be easy to understand.

Even the Bible says "Let Children come, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these" in Mark 10:14-15

Even the Koran says "the Essence of the Book consists of clear verses" in Koran 3:07

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

So it is for the God through His next Prophet to unseal the hidden meanings.

Coming back to your quote...The last line clearly tells us that "none knows its interpretation, save only God"

And below verse from Koran 5:48 confirms it again.

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

So it is only through Allah’s Prophets the fullest measure of the truth can be known. That truth should we seek it, shall set us free (John 8:32).

They are excellent verses. I had to bring them out onto the post instead of being hidden away.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not relevant though to the Quran and what it says.

That would be saying that the Word of God has no continuity, that God's words through Christ, is not relevant to God's Words through Muhammad.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

You have given some translations that say "Last of the prophets". So how would you differentiate between the English statements "Last of the prophets" and "Final prophet"?

Are you saying that "for all time" as an additional phrase must exist after saying last?

Muhammad was the last of the Nabi, not the last of the Rasool.

That verse doesnt say father of mankind. It says father of any one of your men. Saying mankind is too much of an inference. Way too much inference. Actually, its not even inference, its directly misquoting the book.

Its very specific. "Anyone of your men". Not "Mankind". Its ahadhin min rijaalikum, not An nas. The problem with your statements is that Quran bi Quran is an already established methodology and its plainly available for anyone, while the Quran keeps calling us Ya Ayyuhannas for all mankind.

Also, the Quran calls all humans as "Ya bani adama". Children of Adam. So you and i are both "Children of Adam". There is no lineage of Adam to Muhammed and him calling himself "Not a father anyone of men among you" making him some grandson of Adam or anything of the sort. This is way way too much stretching of what is not there.

And you see though you say "He does not claim to be the seal of the messengers or rasools", what do you call Bahaullah then? Is he a Nabi or a Rasool? Thus, in that case Bahaullah has to be a rasool (according to your logic).

Thus, what was he? Rasool but not a Nabi? Can you confirm that?

Adam was the first Prophet and Muhammad the last. There was a lineage or succession of Prophets from Adam to Muhammad, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. Each built on what had gone before.

As I understand it, “Rasool” is an Islamic word for “messenger” while “Nabi” is the Islamic word for “prophet.” A Rasool is always a Nabi while a Nabi may or may not be a Rasool. While a Rasool receives a New Revelation from Allah, a Nabi doesn’t and only follows the Revelation of the Rasool before him.

Bahá’u’lláh and the Bab, like Muhammad, Christ and Moses we both Nabi and Rasool.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm not going to debate other meanings of it, but, the one offered by Baha'allah, that it means all Prophets are one another, is ridiculous.

Are you saying the Quran is ridiculous? The Quran clearly confirms the Prophets are One and no distinction should be made between them.

Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
3:84

 

[Samael_Khan]

Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. After the Father sent His Prophets He finally sent His Son (Matthew 21:33-46).This was God’s last Prophet to the Jewish people according to the Christians. It is through Christ, the Alpha and the Omega that God Revealed Himself to man in His fullest complete measure. In that sense He was also the seal of the Prophets.

What do you mean by prophet, since the last book, the book of revelation is a prophecy written by John (according to Christians) who was a Jew and that prophecy would have been sent to christians and told to Jews who werent Christian yet. It would best be said that Jesus was the last prophet sent exclusively to the Jews.

By prophet do you mean the manifestation of God? Because i think what you mean by prophet isnt what Christians mean by a prophet. So i think I understand what you mean but you maybe not using the write word or phrase for it.

As per the link I gave, God himself is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. Traditionally it is in reference to His eternal nature. Only God and Jesus are considered the Alpha and Omega in the Bible, so they both are a beginning and an end of something.

What do you mean by "God revealed himself to man in his fullest complete measure"?

 

[firedragon]

There is only One Islam.

Then my question would be "Which version do you consider the 'one islam'"?

 

[Dawnofhope]

If Quran was not protected, it would be wrong to end Prophethood. But if Quran is protected, and God sends a succession of Messengers, and will send a Messenger to revive the revelation of Mohammad at the end times (the Mahdi will return), then is not cutting of God's hand.

Baha’is believe the Gospel and Torah brought by Jesus and Moses respectfully were also protected. Yet further Revelation was required. The conditions of the people had changed so much in the 1,500 years from Moses to Christ, many of the laws of the Torah were no longer applicable to that age. One of the biggest criticisms the Jews had of Christ is He abrogated the law of the Sabbath by healing another on this day. To this criticism Christ responded:

“The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:27

So the conditions of humanity have changed with 1200 years between the Muhammad and the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh. So the Quran was protected. However some of the laws are not suited for this age and new Laws and Teachings are required. So rather than considering competing claims of Prophethood, consider the relevance of Sharia law to our current age.

In fact, there is wisdom, for the interpretation to win. In the past, the interpretation of the holy books was first to fall even during Prophets who would succeed the founding Prophet, people followed misinterpretations and eventually changed God's words. People despite clear proofs, mixed clergy leadership with that of God's chosen.

Exactly. The first three Caliphs had no authority from the Quran. The fourth Ali, Muhammad’s Son-in-law only lasted a few years before he was murdered.

The holy books, The Torah, Gospels, most of it is about manifesting the position of God's guide on earth. There is still a guide that one day God will manifest through miracles in a way never the proof is never manifested to that degree "say: wait, we too are waiting".

The greatest miracle that Allah Manifested through Muhammad was the Quran. His book is self sufficient. No further miracles are required for the true believers.

 

[firedragon]

Are you saying the Quran is ridiculous? The Quran clearly confirms the Prophets are One and no distinction should be made between them.

No. It doesnt say "the prophets are one". Thats misquoting the Quran. When you say bayna ahadhin, it means anyone of them, that means there are many, but we dont make discrimination towards one or the other.

That doesnt mean they are all one person. Farak or farakwaa in a sentence means you didnt assist or help as in lets say afarakwaa ibidhahum.

You have directly misquoted the Quran brother. Its an extremely simple sentence.

 

[firedragon]

That would be saying that the Word of God has no continuity, that God's words through Christ, is not relevant to God's Words through Muhammad.

Regards Tony

No. That means its not relevant to what the Quran says.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Then my question would be "Which version do you consider the 'one islam'"?

The version where the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh renews Islam.

 

[firedragon]

Muhammad was the last of the Nabi, not the last of the Rasool.



Adam was the first Prophet and Muhammad the last. There was a lineage or succession of Prophets from Adam to Muhammad, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. Each built on what had gone before.

As I understand it, “Rasool” is an Islamic word for “messenger” while “Nabi” is the Islamic word for “prophet.” A Rasool is always a Nabi while a Nabi may or may not be a Rasool. While a Rasool receives a New Revelation from Allah, a Nabi doesn’t and only follows the Revelation of the Rasool before him.

Bahá’u’lláh and the Bab, like Muhammad, Christ and Moses we both Nabi and Rasool.

Still, its misquoting the Quran to say "Muhammed is not the father of mankind" which i explained and its pretty straightforward. The Quran doesnt say that. So i think you should quote books but not misquote them so blatantly.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Then my question would be "Which version do you consider the 'one islam'"?

That is a good question and I see Islam is all the Messages given by all of God's Messengers. No distinction do we make in the giver of God's Messages.

".. No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory... "

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

The version where the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh renews Islam.

Ah. Then thats not the version of Islam that is what I would call Islam. Thats an Islam that was born in 19th century. So there is no "One Islam". thus, general statements like "Kaim etc and the belief is Islam".

 

[firedragon]

That is a good question and I see Islam is all the Messages given by all of God's Messengers. No distinction do we make in the giver of God's Messages.

".. No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory... "

Regards Tony

Very good. No distinction between any of the messengers. Thats quoting the Quran. Then are you saying the Quranic versionn of Islam is "THE ISLAM"? Then quote the Quran.