Why insult?

[leibowde84]

Well, they did make their decision. The problem is, I don't understand why they value this portion of freedom of speech over the lives of the innocent? They know very will it will risk so many lives!

And also, isn't media already the plural of medium? Why do you say medias? Just kidding. Way to change subject, eh?

where does it end? Are we supposed to give into every psychopath? We should stand up against extremists. And this is the perfect opportunity. Every religion must be peaceful at all costs. If this is not the case with Islam, then I have been grossly misinformed.

 

[leibowde84]

where does it end? Are we supposed to give into every psychopath? We should stand up against extremists. And this is the perfect opportunity. Every religion must be peaceful at all costs. If this is not the case with Islam, then I have been grossly misinformed.

expecting this kind of behavior will lead to more behavior just like it. We have a responsibility just stand up and fight against intimidation.

 

[leibowde84]

I don't care who is involved. The nonviolent actor is always the better man. And this notion that religious beliefs should be treated differently than other ideas is ridiculously outdated.

 

[Smart_Guy]

where does it end? Are we supposed to give into every psychopath? We should stand up against extremists. And this is the perfect opportunity. Every religion must be peaceful at all costs. If this is not the case with Islam, then I have been grossly misinformed.

expecting this kind of behavior will lead to more behavior just like it. We have a responsibility just stand up and fight against intimidation.

I see where you're coming from, and please believe me, I share the same basics you're having. All I want is to not end up with casualties. We can have different approaches. If one gives some negative results, we can find other ways. I'm Muslim and I want this to end maybe more than you do. Anything can be taken care of to an extent, but once one is dead, they are dead and there is no return back. The subject approach causes death and it is offensive. Why not stop it and find another better way? We need to improve instead of repeating the same mistake over and over. Even people inside Charlie Hebdo blame the cartoons as the reason behind the death of the staff:
Charlie Hebdo co-founder says murdered editor 'dragged' staff to death with magazine's provocative cartoons - Europe - World - The Independent

And by the way, I see the point in quotes like "100 lashes if you don't die laughing" funny and I agree to what it's trying to imply. Now that is a freedom of speech I can agree with.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I don't care who is involved. The nonviolent actor is always the better man. And this notion that religious beliefs should be treated differently than other ideas is ridiculously outdated.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but do you mean that you don't care about the innocent lives that got involved and lost as a result?

I believe religion should be treated differently. Beliefs are complicated. Maybe You and me can take it, either as completely fine or as an insult that we can deal with and do nothing about it, but some others can't. I believe it is always better to stay in the safe side.

 

[Reza02]

Where did anyone attribute the actions of these terrorists to all of Islam?

Some people think these terrorists learned these actions from Prophet Muhammad, Some of them think Muslims killing all of men who don't agree them, etc.
I will explain facts and it was a general sentence.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Absolutely true.

All moderate Muslims I know, and I, have the same exact idea. Some Muslims even risked it and made Youtube videos and memes of it to spread awareness and get something useful through the skulls of those stupid extremests to basically ignore it or at least approach to the producers with reason.

Very admirable.

This article:
Call of Duty map removed at request of Muslim gamers - GameSpot
Features a Muslim asking a game producer/developer to remove some offensive contents after giving them the reason how it is offensive. The developers did respond positively to it. (Yup, I'm a gamer ).

But remember, this is a game, a business, and they are trying to sell to muslims as well as any religious person or non-religious. They pulled this as a business decision in their best financial interest. And rightly so. This was not an issue of free speech.

I want this to reach all Muslims. Prophet Muhammad even said that moderation makes things beautiful. It is a hadeeth.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but do you mean that you don't care about the innocent lives that got involved and lost as a result?

I believe religion should be treated differently. Beliefs are complicated. Maybe You and me can take it, either as completely fine or as an insult that we can deal with and do nothing about it, but some others can't. I believe it is always better to stay in the safe side.

I disagree with this. Religion affects the minds of billions. Even simple criticism of religion is punishable by death in many sharia countries. In the west we are supposedly free to criticize. Mockery is used by religion against every other religion and more so against nonbelievers. Mockery is a very effective form of speech to reveal irrational beliefs. Mockery has value. Can it go to far? Can it be mean spirited and even hateful? Yes it can. But it then opens itself up to its own criticisms and mockery. This back and forth constitutes a dialogue, though it may be crass, this is the level many people relate.

There is a battle of ideas. And in this battle mockery is perfectly fair. Those who respond with violence are merely demonstrating that they can't win a war of ideas, their ideas can't survive without violence, or they, as individuals, are incompetent fight the battle of ideas; The only justification for responding to voice with fist is the lack of anything worth saying.

When people are insulted by words, it is because there is truth in the words!

 

[Smart_Guy]

But remember, this is a game, a business, and they are trying to sell to muslims as well as any religious person or non-religious. They pulled this as a business decision in their best financial interest. And rightly so. This was not an issue of free speech.

We're not talking about the field of work the insult was done in, nor we are the reason behind removing the insult. There was an insult and instead of doing whatever inappropriate; i.e. violent, against it, there was contact with the source of the insult respectfully asking for its removal. All of this was done in the Muslims side before any decision was made to the offensive material. The same thing could have been done with the directors of those cartoons. I personally respectfully asked a person in Gamespot.com forums to remove a signature that was offensive to Prophet Muhammad and he removed it just because I asked nicely as per his own words and I'm eternally grateful to him.

Also, if using Quranic verses in a video game was not a freedom of speech, although maybe unrelated and my post which was mainly about how to deal with insults, what would it be called? At worst cases it would be called freedom to do anything.

Please forgive me for such assumption, but do I sense a negative intent against Muslims by finding a reason that what was done in that article, to deny them any credits in doing good works and having moderate good individuals? If not, then I apologize.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I disagree with this. Religion affects the minds of billions. Even simple criticism of religion is punishable by death in many sharia countries.

I think this is a good reason to treat religion differently. And what a govt. of a country does, only represents them, not Islam and Muslims. Also please don't exaggerate and spread wrong information. Such countries still have less punishments than executions for criticism of religion.

Of course I respect your disagreement. I'm not trying to bash it, but only discuss why I'm disagreeing with your disagreement.

Please answer me this: is mockery a good attitude? Just a simple yes or no please, then elaborate if you want.

 

[Lyndon]

When people are insulted by words, it is because there is truth in the words!

A rather ridiculous statement, there may be truth in those words, but certainly not all the time.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

We're not talking about the field of work the insult was done in, nor we are the reason behind removing the insult. There was an insult and instead of doing whatever inappropriate; i.e. violent, against it, there was contact with the source of the insult respectfully asking for its removal. All of this was done in the Muslims side before any decision was made to the offensive material. The same thing could have been done with the directors of those cartoons. I personally respectfully asked a person in Gamespot.com forums to remove a signature that was offensive to Prophet Muhammad and he removed it just because I asked nicely as per his own words and I'm eternally grateful to him.

Yes this part I agree with and the action by the muslims and the company were very respectful. My point was that the game was not trying to make a politcal, religious, or ideological statement. They were merely trying to sell games.

Also, if using Quranic verses in a video game was not a freedom of speech, although maybe unrelated and my post which was mainly about how to deal with insults, what would it be called? At worst cases it would be called freedom to do anything.

Yes the game is free to say what they want and in that sense it was freedom of speech. But they did (most likely) not include the sayings to begin with for the principle of speech. Freedom of speech was not an issue. As we move into the world of insults, it is often one of perception. What may be satire, or even mockery to one, may be taken as an insult by others. Even completely innocent comment can be taken as insults.

Please forgive me for such assumption, but do I sense a negative intent against Muslims by finding a reason that what was done in that article, to deny them any credits in doing good works and having moderate good individuals? If not, then I apologize.

No negative intent toward muslims. CH has had many cartoons against christians and jews as well as muslims and these are all fair game, including jesus and mosses having sex.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

I think this is a good reason to treat religion differently. And what a govt. of a country does, only represents them, not Islam and Muslims. Also please don't exaggerate and spread wrong information. Such countries still have less punishments than executions for criticism of religion.

Of course I respect your disagreement. I'm not trying to bash it, but only discuss why I'm disagreeing with your disagreement.

Please answer me this: is mockery a good attitude? Just a simple yes or no please, then elaborate if you want.

You want a yes or no answer to a general question, but the answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no. If mockery is used to make a point or expose irrational ideology then it can be a very useful and valid tool. You do not offend me I respect your opinions and appreciate the opportunity to exchange opinions and ideas.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

A rather ridiculous statement, there may be truth in those words, but certainly not all the time.

True enough.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Yes this part I agree with and the action by the muslims and the company were very respectful. My point was that the game was not trying to make a politcal, religious, or ideological statement. They were merely trying to sell games.Yes the game is free to say what they want and in that sense it was freedom of speech. But they did (most likely) not include the sayings to begin with for the principle of speech. Freedom of speech was not an issue. As we move into the world of insults, it is often one of perception. What may be satire, or even mockery to one, may be taken as an insult by others. Even completely innocent comment can be taken as insults.No negative intent toward muslims. CH has had many cartoons against christians and jews as well as muslims and these are all fair game, including jesus and mosses having sex.

You want a yes or no answer to a general question, but the answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no. If mockery is used to make a point or expose irrational ideology then it can be a very useful and valid tool. You do not offend me I respect your opinions and appreciate the opportunity to exchange opinions and ideas.

I understand. Thank you for sharing your views and opinions. And sorry if I seemed rude at some point or for any misunderstanding.

CH has had many cartoons against christians and jews as well as muslims and these are all fair game, including jesus and mosses having sex.

Oh my God. Why would anyone do this to a human being? This is not criticizing ideas, it's direct insult to dead people (just as it is to Muhammad, another dead person). May I ask what your opinion is such an act?

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Oh my God. Why would anyone do this to a human being? This is not criticizing ideas, it's direct insult to dead people (just as it is to Muhammad, another dead person). May I ask what your opinion is such an act?

It is tasteless imo. It does not anger me in the least, but it repulses me. Perhaps because I am no longer a christian. But many people will be infuriated.

I am infuriated by many many things that people say; in politics, in ethics, even in religion. But it never ever occurs to me to physically attack the speaker, or to take away the rights of the person saying such things.

In the world of humans, there is nothing more important than ideas. And there is nothing that exposes bad/wrong ideas as well as free speech. And that includes idiotic, hateful, insulting ideas and words.

 

[Smart_Guy]

It is tasteless imo. It does not anger me in the least, but it repulses me. Perhaps because I am no longer a christian. But many people will be infuriated.

I am infuriated by many many things that people say; in politics, in ethics, even in religion. But it never ever occurs to me to physically attack the speaker, or to take away the rights of the person saying such things.

In the world of humans, there is nothing more important than ideas. And there is nothing that exposes bad/wrong ideas as well as free speech. And that includes idiotic, hateful, insulting ideas and words.

I don't see it as a matter of religion any more, I see it as a matter of humanity. Muhammad, Moses and Jesus were humans just like you and me and those disrespectful bunch of cartoonists. The three are dead now. I can't believe the world has sunk so law to insult dead people because of those claiming to follow them doing atrocities in their names. No one should carry the burden of others, it is just not fair. It really hurts me that morals and ethics are disappearing little by little from this world. Where I live, being as so bad is it, I prefer to stay and live with my dignity as long as I'm minding my own business instead of living in a free place that has no respect to people. Here all we do is pray that God may take care of them Himself as they are already did and cannot do anything anymore. If one day I gain supporters of any kind then die, I don't want to be insulted in my grave because of some of them being irresponsible. Even in my life, I don't want to one day find myself insulted on TV just because of a sore loser that decided to do it. Here we are protected against such a thing. I also don't want it to happen to you or someone you love.

I too would never physically hurt anyone, and Muslims overall shouldn't, as I explained at least two times in this thread. Morals aren't just in concrete actions, but also in the verbal. If freedom of speech is absolutely good just because it is not physical, why do people consider lies bad? Why do they censor profanity? Why do they cover the eyes of children from inappropriate views? All those are not physical yet not acceptable.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

I don't see it as a matter of religion any more, I see it as a matter of humanity. Muhammad, Moses and Jesus were humans just like you and me and those disrespectful bunch of cartoonists. The three are dead now. I can't believe the world has sunk so law to insult dead people because of those claiming to follow them doing atrocities in their names. No one should carry the burden of others, it is just not fair. It really hurts me that morals and ethics are disappearing little by little from this world. Where I live, being as so bad is it, I prefer to stay and live with my dignity as long as I'm minding my own business instead of living in a free place that has no respect to people. Here all we do is pray that God may take care of them Himself as they are already did and cannot do anything anymore. If one day I gain supporters of any kind then die, I don't want to be insulted in my grave because of some of them being irresponsible. Even in my life, I don't want to one day find myself insulted on TV just because of a sore loser that decided to do it. Here we are protected against such a thing. I also don't want it to happen to you or someone you love.

I too would never physically hurt anyone, and Muslims overall shouldn't, as I explained at least two times in this thread. Morals aren't just in concrete actions, but also in the verbal. If freedom of speech is absolutely good just because it is not physical, why do people consider lies bad? Why do they censor profanity? Why do they cover the eyes of children from inappropriate views? All those are not physical yet not acceptable.

We agree, no matter what one says, violence is not the answer? The question then is what do you or should you do to stop people from voicing their thoughts? And what do you or should you do to punish people from voicing their thoughts?

What do you believe, if anything, should have been done to punish those who drew the cartoons at CH?

 

[Smart_Guy]

We agree, no matter what one says, violence is not the answer? The question then is what do you or should you do to stop people from voicing their thoughts? And what do you or should you do to punish people from voicing their thoughts?

What do you believe, if anything, should have been done to punish those who drew the cartoons at CH?

Yes, violence is never the answer.

I don't believe we should stop people from voicing their thoughts. What I believe in is that nothing is absolutely free. Freedom is a good thing, but I believe there are limits/sense/regulations to what one can say. We are intelligent and civilized humans. We have sense unlike other creatures doing whatever they want whenever they want. I believe the govt. has the duty is putting those limits/regulations to reach a common ground that overlaps with different minds in the community as much as possible.

I don't believe in punishing people for stating their minds. I however believe in abiding to the law, If the law says it, we should follow. The govt. knows better in security/social matters, and again, we are civilized humans that I believe shouldn't live the law of the jungle (if I get the expression right). If a law is broken, the govt. is the one to deal with it.

I don't believe in punishing CH unless they broke a law. In the subject of this thread, I believe the right thing to had been done by Muslims is to approach the management of the CH reasoning with them asking them to stop that if possible with giving the explanations why. Other religions followers maybe did get over getting their religions insulted, but Muslims still didn't (as a belief only in this very subject at least, not as needing to act for it), so this is one point Muslims could have explained to them. If CH refused to understand and be supportive, then the way to do it is to forget about it and ignore it. Hmm, I think I answered this question before in this thread... well, no harm in repeating I guess.

 

[Chev Chelios]

I think many seem to have missed the point here - the target of those cartoons was not Moslems but the ideas and symbols behind Islam itself. Charlie Hebdo were challenging the perverse idea that you cannot draw the prophet of Islam less you be punished - an idea supported by mainstream Islam but which is diametrically opposed to Western values. I can think of few ideas that are more deserving of being taken on than one which deems it a crime if one was to mock a faith and so by definition meaning it seeks to shape a society into what that faith wants it to be.

This is tyranny and it must be resisted - and that it was charlie Hebdo did, they went after dangerous ideas because they knew the stakes if they didn't - a regression of society into something less free and curtailed. That is not acceptable - we must not accept sharia blasphemy laws by maintaing the boundaries of our freedom, part of which allows us to challenge subversive precepts of a belief system - Moslems are just going to have to get used to it.

This is why I think Moslems have much blame in this for it is they who haven't dealt with troubling aspects of their faith, allowing ideas of blasphemy and apostacy to flourish thereby making the possibility of Islam being able to function in a modern enlightened society much more difficult. It is their fault that Western ideals are on a collision course with Islamic ones - the responsibility therefore falls to them to tame their faith, it is not down us to change our society to accomodate it.

Sadly, Islam is winning for I now live in a culture where pictures of Jesus made from cow dung can be exhibited in a gallery as high art whilst in the same city Islamic artifacts are removed from museums less they cause offense. Christianity can be mocked to no end - but Islam gets a pass. Moslems can chant 'heil Hitler' and "death to Britian" but if someone said they hate Islam - they are jailed. That is what the effects of not challenging these Islamic precepts does - and this is the just the start.