Why insult?

[FunctionalAtheist]

Yes, violence is never the answer.

I don't believe we should stop people from voicing their thoughts. What I believe in is that nothing is absolutely free. Freedom is a good thing, but I believe there are limits/sense/regulations to what one can say. We are intelligent and civilized humans. We have sense unlike other creatures doing whatever they want whenever they want. I believe the govt. has the duty is putting those limits/regulations to reach a common ground that overlaps with different minds in the community as much as possible.

I don't believe in punishing people for stating their minds. I however believe in abiding to the law, If the law says it, we should follow. The govt. knows better in security/social matters, and again, we are civilized humans that I believe shouldn't live the law of the jungle (if I get the expression right). If a law is broken, the govt. is the one to deal with it.

I don't believe in punishing CH unless they broke a law. In the subject of this thread, I believe the right thing to had been done by Muslims is to approach the management of the CH reasoning with them asking them to stop that if possible with giving the explanations why. Other religions followers maybe did get over getting their religions insulted, but Muslims still didn't (as a belief only in this very subject at least, not as needing to act for it), so this is one point Muslims could have explained to them. If CH refused to understand and be supportive, then the way to do it is to forget about it and ignore it. Hmm, I think I answered this question before in this thread... well, no harm in repeating I guess.

It never hurts to repeat intelligent words But forgive me if I asked one you had already stated.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

I think many seem to have missed the point here - the target of those cartoons was not Moslems but the ideas and symbols behind Islam itself. Charlie Hebdo were challenging the perverse idea that you cannot draw the prophet of Islam less you be punished - an idea supported by mainstream Islam but which is diametrically opposed to Western values. I can think of few ideas that are more deserving of being taken on than one which deems it a crime if one was to mock a faith and so by definition meaning it seeks to shape a society into what that faith wants it to be.

This is tyranny and it must be resisted - and that it was charlie Hebdo did, they went after dangerous ideas because they knew the stakes if they didn't - a regression of society into something less free and curtailed. That is not acceptable - we must not accept sharia blasphemy laws by maintaing the boundaries of our freedom, part of which allows us to challenge subversive precepts of a belief system - Moslems are just going to have to get used to it.

This is why I think Moslems have much blame in this for it is they who haven't dealt with troubling aspects of their faith, allowing ideas of blasphemy and apostacy to flourish thereby making the possibility of Islam being able to function in a modern enlightened society much more difficult. It is their fault that Western ideals are on a collision course with Islamic ones - the responsibility therefore falls to them to tame their faith, it is not down us to change our society to accomodate it.

Sadly, Islam is winning for I now live in a culture where pictures of Jesus made from cow dung can be exhibited in a gallery as high art whilst in the same city Islamic artifacts are removed from museums less they cause offense. Christianity can be mocked to no end - but Islam gets a pass. Moslems can chant 'heil Hitler' and "death to Britian" but if someone said they hate Islam - they are jailed. That is what the effects of not challenging these Islamic precepts does - and this is the just the start.

I hear a lot of what you're saying. I agree with the content of your general statements, but not sure where you live so no comment on being arrested for challenging islam as opposed to christianity.

I've been reading the past week and hope I've been learning as well. One thing that strikes me is the difference in what is acceptable in islamic countries, some european countries, and the us where I live. I've come to the conclusion that 'the answer' doesn't exist. I.e. there is no perfect world. I tend to believe, as you state, that muslims must get over it. Here in the us christians are still dealing with getting over it and I assure you while we are free to criticize, mock, and outright insult christianity, it is hardly without raising the ire of the faithful.

Compared to muslim countries where you can be executed for such things, our way is much much better as free speech encourages free thought and the benefits of that are incalculable. Compared to europe I sometime wonder if it is similar to what the US was 100 years ago, where christianity was off limits, only complicated by globalization.

But even where we supposedly have complete freedom of speech, at times we are reduced to the most pathetic and distasteful back and forth of hateful and insulting speech.

I'd much rather live were insult and hateful speak were common place as opposed to where either violence was common place or where free thought was curtailed through blasphemy laws.

 

[Godobeyer]

I remember very well when some Western people get hurt and reject some anti-USA sentence "down with USA" , or "USA is great Satan" .

they want us to accept their insult as freedom of speech .

btw i reject anti-USA and anti-Islam insult .

 

[YmirGF]

I remember very well when some Western people get hurt and reject some anti-USA sentence "down with USA" , or "USA is great Satan" .

they want us to accept their insult as freedom of speech .

btw i reject anti-USA and anti-Islam insult .

I don't recall too many instances of "Down with America", though I do recall quite a few "Death to America" rallies from Middle Eastern countries. I don't think hurt is the right word. My personal favorite was being told that "death" in the "Death to America; Death to Israel" rants didn't literally mean "death". Odd that they would use that word over all others tho.

Hearing crowds chanting for your death doesn't elicit insult. It wakes one up to the fact that these folks may not be kidding.

 

[Smart_Guy]

It never hurts to repeat intelligent words But forgive me if I asked one you had already stated.

I was just being talkative mentioning that point. I wasn't really implying anything, no worries.

 

[Godobeyer]

So you would classify Islam as a religion that doesn't insult Jews?? Maybe not in the Koran, but today, right now??

can you mention which verse of Quran insult Jews ?

accuatly Quran and Gospels insulted some of Jews .

could you explain why Quran did not said that Jews whom killed Jesus (pbuh) ?

btw how about Talmud who insult all non-jews . that's why there is no translations of Talmud from Hebrew or Aramaic to any langauge ., except some parts.

there is announcement from TV Egyptian channel owner called Tawfiq Okasha yesterday , request ALL Jews to don't follow their extrem Rabbis and reject Talmud which is human made had no relate to God .message Torah .

 

[Godobeyer]

I don't recall too many instances of "Down with America", though I do recall quite a few "Death to America" rallies from Middle Eastern countries. I don't think hurt is the right word. My personal favorite was being told that "death" in the "Death to America; Death to Israel" rants didn't literally mean "death". Odd that they would use that word over all others tho.

Hearing crowds chanting for your death doesn't elicit insult. It wakes one up to the fact that these folks may not be kidding.

accuatly there is no kidding (fun) in provocation insult .

I saw many Westerns provoked by these messages .

 

[Lyndon]

I was responding to a Muslim poster who said Muslims do not insult other religions, and I asked, "Do not many muslims insult Jews today, NOT in the Koran, but today"

 

[Maldini]

Islam is never responsible. NEVER. Even if all 1 billion turn into terrorists, it's their own fault not Islam. It's not like it's a way of life or anything like that.

 

[Maldini]

It's very funny though just after the killings Muslims suddenly realized they need to support their prophet. Where were they before the attacks? If it's not supporting the terrorists then what it is?

 

[mahmoud mrt]

Why does Isis behead people? Because Muhammad did


Islamic historians tell us that in 627 AD Mohammed beheaded over 700 men (and boys) of the Qurayza tribe in Medina, Arabia.

Kindly have knowledge of events before posting a slogan like this


The Soldiers and leaders of the Tribe BanuKoriza betrayed their citizenship treaty they willingly had signed with the Prophet, they had all their religious, economical and cultural rights in exchange for not betraying the state or attacking Muslims, but While Medina was under siege by 10 thousands pagans army BanuKoriza openly broke the treaty and prepared to attack and kill all Muslims women and children from the back. This was call the battle of “Khandaq” or “Ahzab” at year 5 higri /627 AD.


After the battle was over they “BanuKoriza “ agreed on the Muslim judge who was an ally of them, But the top treason crime was overwhelming, the judge had no choice but the death penalty of all soldiers and leaders, thus lead to the enslavement of all women and children without forcing them to join Islam, Keep in mind that the slavery system in Islam is way different, Even the Muslim master is not allowed to call him or her Slave, but is instructed to call him My Boy, or My girl, he or she is treated as a respected person of the family, he should eat, drink and wear as his masters, never be burdened with a hard job or else the master should help him or her in it. And eventually they are encouraged to be freed by the Holy Qur’an commands to free slaves, or they can work and pay to free themselves.



While after this by only less than two years, the prophet made another treaty with the Jews tribes in “Khaibar” town, he did not hurt or enslave them, they were about 10 thousands men with their women and children, The prophet spared them because they were another Town not involved in high treason in the Muslim State, this was at year 7 higri, 628 AD and was called the battle and treaty of” Kaibar”

So to call such people evil, is that an insult...well yes it is...but it is also a fact. The inventor of Islam did all of those things. Many Millions of Muslims would like to see his inhumane policies instituted. His lifestyle and deeds motivate many people in our world to commit violence, thinking that it is God's will. To call such murderers evil is simply calling a spade a spade.

Wrong again, the problem is in the middle ages many lies have been invented and inserted in the traditions (Hadith) books about what the prophet did or said, those lies are the fuel of such extreme criminals like ISIS.


The true authenticated events of the prophet condemns what ISIS do, the holy Qur’an is clear that those things ISIS do are forbidden,


Here is a post where I refuted using the holy Qur’an clear verses the crimes of ISIS


The caliphate between conspiracy and prophecy | ReligiousForums.com

Fortunately, there are many muslims who do not believe it is okay to commit violence against infidels. It is wrong to call those muslims evil. If they speak up against the Muslims who are bloodthirsty, I call them Heroes.

I’m doing this every day thanks Allah using the Holy Qur’an clear verses.

Those are simply very Ignorant, the problem of Muslims is that they are ignorant, most of them even cannot read although the first word the was revealed from the holy Qur’an is (Read)



We educated Muslims have the duty of teaching those ignorant Muslims. And we are doing our best.



Regards


Mahmoud

 

[leibowde84]

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[QUOTE="leibowde84, post: 4118043, member: 56049

Again, I find the problem entirely with those that react in a childish or violent way. These kinds of insults or criticisms will always be around, so each and every one of us has the responsibility to react well, no matter who it insults. Thick skin is a requirement to be considered an adult in this globalized world. Anyone without one should be rightly ridiculed as being childish.

I would argue that it's equally childish to purposely insult someone.[/QUOTE]
What?! You equate a cartoon in bad taste with savage murder? Can you explain how they are even on the same level?

 

[Reza02]

Why you kill?

Kill no good!

Okay, I'll get serious. Insulting religion is forbidden in Islam alright, but no action to be taken by Islamic laws exists against it. The Prophet was insulted and harmed. Mother Aisha bad mouthed some of those and the Prophet told her to never do it. People physically abused him but he refused even to pray for their demise. Muslims saying to behead and kill those who insult Islam are wrong. As long as the other side is not a war enemy that wants to kill Muslims or exile them from their home and take their land, Muslims should never harm them. All these atrocities are not part of Islam. The right approach to do against such insults is to negotiate with the producers verbally or politically.

It is unfortunate that so many Muslims are so uneducated.

But anyways, those producers already know that there are some crazy Muslims and that Muslims in general don't like their beliefs insulted. Why do those stupid producers keep insisting on it/pushing it? You know there is a psychopath near you, would you provoke them and risk your life? Let alone having that psychopath telling you they don't like it? Just how stupid are those producers? The producers are also to blame here, not just those extremest Muslims. Forget about the stupid freedom of speech. What good does it do if you know it will bring death to you?

Your speech is logical but I feel misunderstanding. It's apper you thought I taked the side with extremist terrorists, But it's wrong. I'm opposed of extremism and terrorism.
I think the extremist ISIS terrorists aren't part of Islam just as the extremist groups of Christians aren't part of Christianity.
And I said actions of those terrorists shoudn't lead for caricature of the Prophet of 1.5 billion Muslims.

 

[leibowde84]

So effective that an immigrant from Somalia has just been stabbed to death and swastikas painted on his home .in Germany

The acts of the metally unbalanced should not be blamed on cartoonists. I don't understand how we can think any differently.

 

[leibowde84]

Your speech is logical but I feel misunderstanding. It's apper you thought I taked the side with extremist terrorists, But it's wrong. I'm opposed of extremism and terrorism.
I think the extremist ISIS terrorists aren't part of Islam just as the extremist groups of Christians aren't part of Christianity.
And I said actions of those terrorists shoudn't lead for caricature of the Prophet of 1.5 billion Muslims.

Or maybe everyone needs to learn how to live and let live. If a cartoon bothers you, speak about it. They are just as free to express their disgust over the cartoon as the cartoonists are to draw pictures of Muhammad. The rules of Islam do not apply to anyone other than Muslims.

 

[leibowde84]

I agree. I believe in free speech but insulting anyone is never ok. Neither is attacking someone who insulted you.
You reap what you sow, so if you purposely insult someone than you should be prepared for the consequences. That's not to say that anyone should have been killed over a depiction of Mohammed. However, what was their point in doing so but to intentionally **** people off?

Since when is pissing someone off justifiction for murder? By saying that "they reap what they sow" you are saying that cold-blooded murder is an expected response to a cartoon. That is just insane to me.

 

[leibowde84]

Your speech is logical but I feel misunderstanding. It's apper you thought I taked the side with extremist terrorists, But it's wrong. I'm opposed of extremism and terrorism.
I think the extremist ISIS terrorists aren't part of Islam just as the extremist groups of Christians aren't part of Christianity.
And I said actions of those terrorists shoudn't lead for caricature of the Prophet of 1.5 billion Muslims.

If we as non-Muslims should be expected to respect a rule (as seemingly ridiculous) as not being aloud to criticize or draw a historical figure, then shouldn't all Muslims be forced to acknowledge our cultural rule of being able to insult ideas without fear of violent retribution?

 

[Reza02]

draw a historical figure

Historical figure?

If we as non-Muslims should be expected to respect a rule (as seemingly ridiculous)

The rules of Islam do not apply to anyone other than Muslims

You can don't do these but all men should respect to each other rules even Muslims and Christians.

as not being aloud to criticize or draw a historical figure,

Insult isn't criticize

then shouldn't all Muslims be forced to acknowledge our cultural rule of being able to insult ideas without fear of violent retribution?

They are just as free to express their disgust over the cartoon as the cartoonists are to draw pictures of Muhammad.

You can criticize and we can receive it but when someone insults to each other faith that means he don't like criticize or he can't do it. That means he wants to destroy it.

 

[Reza02]

Or maybe everyone needs to learn how to live and let live.

What I should afraid of my life? If they could I wasn't be alive now. They can't enter Iran. Some of Iranian generals are in Iraq and Syria and they are in battle with Them like general Soleimani ( Soleymani) and they couldn't kill them. Now you think they can enter Iran?

If a cartoon bothers you, speak about it.

I spoked alot about it. You can refer to previous pages

 

[leibowde84]

Historical figure?


All men should respect to each other rules.


Insult isn't criticize



You can criticize and we can receive it but when someone insults to each other faith that means he don't like criticize or he can't do it. That means he wants to destroy it.

You are jumping around a bit there. I'll try to sort this out.

1. Muhammad is a "historical figure" because he was a political/religious figure in history that we know quite a bit about.

2. All men should respect the rules of others, but we have no obligation to follow them. I have no problem with Muslims following whatever rules they want, but I am not going to take it when they force their rules on me. If I want to draw a picture of any historical figure, God, or prophet, I should be allowed to do so without fear of judgment.

3. And, finally, this discussion is about verbal abuse, not physical abuse. My entire point is that verbal insults should always be met with words, not actions.