Why is being gay considered wrong?

[joeboonda]

Ha, made me giggle, too!

 

[Feathers in Hair]

I can't imagine it wouldn't be very unnerving, hehee!

Perhaps that "sterotypical male" is just that, a sterotype.

Wonderfully, incredibly well put, Ardent. Stereotypes involve pre-judging people. Assuming that the person who's doing the judging has never tried sex with a person of the same gender, they are pre-judging the other people by considering that it's more disgusting than oppososite-sex... sex.

And hypothetical- me is busy enough filling out the score board on the people that are currently hiding under the blankets! I hope hypothetical- me doesn't have to come into everyone else's bedrooms!

 

[Ulver]

FINALLY!!!.... ::collapses on the ground::.... I've finally made it to the top of the mountain... uhm, I mean thread.

Well I decided that rather then just post while being ignorant of the now 70+ pages of posts, that I'd read THE WHOLE THING and then express my own view. Indeed over the past few days it's been very interesting seeing this thread develop and how people have reacted and debated.... so now I guess it's time to say my bit. A good chunk of it commenting on what others have stated. This may take a few posts...

Any sex without love is pretty digusting when you think about it. It has nothing to do with sexual preference, it has to do with turning something beautiful into a bodily function such as defecating.

Personally for myself, I agree with this. Here's were I'll mention some personal matters on myself and anyone is welcome to ask about it if you want. I myself consider myself Bi-sexual. I say this because I feel natural attraction to both woemn and men (though in both I'm picky). I'm not sure if my mind will naturally commit to one or another, but I''m sure if I found the right person, then that would be the only person I'd want to be with (male or female). That being said, I'll also say I have been involved in intimate and sexual contact, yet I do consider myself still a virgin because there are some things I have not done yet (pm me if you HONESTLY want to know). The reason for this is because I have yet had a relationship where I've developed such a loving bond that I would be willing to have "sex". I will not necc. wait till marriage but I will not cross a certain line till I am sure I am in love with the on I am with and they love me. To know that we both care that much for each other would allow myself then to be as intimate as I can possible be with them then.

No!!! Please, not that again!!! Ahhhh!!!! :biglaugh:
There's nothing "unnatural" per se about men liking things to touch thier prostate gland. What is unnatural is the way they go about it, by having another man perform anal sex, just to have to prostate stimulated. That is what is unnatural, but to an even huger degree, immoral.

It's much more then that. Sex is a mental and spiritual matter just as much as it is physical. It's no different then a straight couple saying sex means more then simply stimulation of their penis, clitoris or g-spot.

I see your point, I've endured pain to have surgery, nothing wrong with that either. But in surgery or your hemophilia we are talking about doing something that you have to do to stay alive. Homosexuality, excessive weight lifting and running, these are all "choices" that people make for their own enjoyment, you don't "have to" lift weights or be a homosexual to stay alive. There is a big difference that you can't possibly miss.

Sex, just like physical exercise, is not simply matters of enjoyment, but also are activities done to help one's health. Two individuals having a strong loving bond, which includes sex, will often help there mental health (individuals clean of STDs, though with properly used protection even someone with one could count). This is the case because the simple fact that being in a loving, bonding relationship with another that includes mental, physical and spiritual aspect will make one feel good about themselves.
This also leads one to not "sleep around", because one would feel they have everything they need from only that one other person. This is something that both gay couples, lesbian couples and straight couples can experience.

np: Metallica- Orion :jam:

 

[Sunstone]

Someone ought to give Ulver a medal for reading this entire thread start to finish.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

*jaw's dropping*

You're a braver person than I am! I don't have a medal, but frubals are heading your way!

 

[Ulver]

But God is so interested in us being educated (wisdom, knowledge, and understanding) that he gave us 66 books (in the bible) to read, 100's of prophets to reiterate the 66 books, and even sent His son Jesus so that there would be no doubt about His will. We can choose to recieve this education so that we won't go through life "blind" or we can choose to walk in ignorance.

Perhaps God is so interested in humans being educated that he sent us not One Religion and not One Path, but many to take. Couldn't that be possible?

Like the shellfish rule, however, what may have once had a purpose does not any longer. The idea that homosexuality is evil should have been thrown out with the idea that shellfish is bad, or that people should not wear clothes made of two different kinds of fabrics. (Run! The linsey-woolsy is coming!). There is nothing about homosexuality that is harmful to the people involved or the people around them...nothing more harmful than dangers which can also be found with heterosexuality.

Indeed, for some of the rules in bible seem not inspired on principles that can be introduced universally, but rather are culturally unique to the Middle-east. Some of the principles do seem Universal, but indeed many do not cross over so well with the cultures and heriteges of other areas of the world. For example the highly fraternal nature of the rules and customs does not work for example with the Celtic people (and to my knowledge particularly the Irish celts) who gave far more freedom to women. For example marriages were not arranged by parents often and it was often the Women who proposed to the man.

So anyone who is infertile is not allowed to have sex? And what is wrong with having sex to strengthen a relationship with a significant other even though you cannot reproduce? So are you saying we, as humans, are only allowed to do things to further the human race and anything else is wrong?

I sawa documentary on how the Catholic church actually does still not allow marriages that involve at least one individual who cannot procreate due to disability or soem other reason.

Indeed most look over the fact that sex isn't only a matter of phyisical pleasure, but a union that strengthens the bond of love between two people.

I'll start my argument for homosexuality now, since the author starts his arguments now. Who is to say homosexuality is not in accordance with nature? Overpopulation is an issue and a species of animals that have say half of the population homosexual and half heterosexual, while they will not reproduce as fast, they will, in the end, not die due to over population.

Indeed nature will find it's own way to cut down on a population that is growing out of control. Homosexuality may be a way to try and prevent a species from breeding too much. However, besides this the Human population has been growing unbelieveable exponentially, this only occuring in the past 200 years. Even though the poppulation levels are leveling off a bit that doesn't mean they will stay that way or that disaster won't stike. For example Ebola may very well of been the one that would of made the Black Plague look small in relation. Imgaine at least 50% to 75% of the human population dead within a few a few years. So while Ebola failed so far, there is always the chance another will not.

Ryan, is Modern Homosexuality normal in light of the original "Greek" homosexuality? Which is more normal?

So are you saying that being gay is considered wrong because ancient greece was full of pedophiles?

The aspect of homosexual relationships between older men and younger men (teens to early adults) was to my knowledge something characteristic of the SPARTIANS. That means one city state and not all of them. Homosexuality was indeed something seen as normal in many greek city states, but that "pedophile" aspect of it like I said was only the case in Sparta.

Also I doubt homosexuality (esp. with it now being known as having biological roots) was simple a "cultural starting" in Greece. The idea, however, that Greece was one of the first areas where homosexuality was aceepted is perhaps a better arguement.

np: Metallica- Fade to Black

 

[Sunstone]

I think you might be mistaken, Ulver, about the pedophilia of the ancient Greeks being limited to Sparta. For instance, Plato speaks about pedophilia, and he was an Athenian.

 

[Ulver]

In the end, on that final day of judgement, it won't matter what your opinion is or what my opinion is, only what God's opinion is.

Who knows if that will happen, but I certianly hope it won't. Yet who knows if it'll be the biblical one, or those more familiar from traditions in India, South America or Norway.

Either way though, if our end is to be soon, it will likely be by our own means , rather then divine ones. Since the creation and cultivation of Nuclear and Biological weapons to such extreme degress...well, lets just say the earth is walking on a thin tight-rope with the endless abyss waiting below it.

side-note- :clap to IndigoChild for pointing out how the Bible has been writen, put together, translated and edited by humans. So there is doubt to the absolute authority of certain passages. However, much could be said about the same of other religions. The tradition of the Norse that has been carried most notable by the Eddas was tainted by the fact that the surviving documents and copies of it were written by christian monks whom had thier own occasional influence on them.

Art only counts if you are going to use it as an idol. (context, you know) I don't make graven images of anyting to worship. I don't even direct my worship toward images of Jesus.

many catholics seem to do this though. In particular when it comes to shrines and images to certain saints.

Again, I don't really care if you mace your mate. Again, this is a free country (USA) and you have the right to do so via the laws of the government. Just as a spouse has a not legal ramifications against adultery.

Part of the problem lies in the fact that it is certain religious groups that are trying to make their beliefs the legal standard that all Americans must follow.

Judeo-Christian thinking which has defeated every other major system out there in the Market Place of Ideas.

Often through the use of the sword and politics. Such as Rome making it it's official religion in a hope to unite the empire under one cause to Charlemagne's campaign to make all of europe christian by "convert or die". Though most often using this only occasionally and the fear alone convereted people.

Also take note my good friend that Islam seems to be catching quickly up to you in the Market Place of Ideas.

I would rather be raised by one loving mommy and one loving daddy than a person who won't even teach their kids to think for themselves - instead of blindly accepting what society tells them is okay - and who don't even teach their kids about whichever religion they profess to beleive to a good enough extent that they can decide for themselves what things they should beleive are sins.

The difference between a homosexual couple and heterosexual couple raising children is little except for kids bullying others becasue their parents are gay. That's mostly the only difference as others have stated. Also I might consider the possiblity that at a young age teaching a child that one faith is better then another or that others are simply full of sinners can have a harsh effect. It de-humanizes people into something that a child when grown up will have no problem with physically attacking because to them "they aren't the same. They're LESS". I was raised catholic and more then liekly avoided ending up like this due to the fact that my Mother is catholic and my Father is jewish. I could not except the idea that one half of my family were spiritually wrong or inferrior or from what my young mind concieved, "couldn't believe they'd go to hell".

np: Neurosis- Stones From The Sky

 

[Ulver]

I think you might be mistaken, Ulver, about the pedophilia of the ancient Greeks being limited to Sparta. For instance, Plato speaks about pedophilia, and he was an Athenian.

I certainly might be wrong since I haven't studied Plato and neither am I an absolute know it all on Greek history. I know a fair bit, but yes I can't say I'm "certain" that there wasn't some other cases of pedophilia in the other city states. From what I had learned though the most extreme sexual and social conditioning was from Sparta (what they did to train kids into soldiers is awful in so many ways). Thank you for correcting me on something I may of been making too much of a guess on.

 

[Ulver]

The real issue is your distaste towards God and your love for humanism

yeah... I'm sure God doesn't want us to treat other people with kindness and try to help them. He instead wants us to think we're superior and think there are big differences between "US" and the rest of mankind. :sarcastic

@Michel- :clap I fell like giving you a hug for posting these two links:

http://www.detnews.com/2005/editorial/0504/25/A09-160784.htm
http://groups.msn.com/GayChristiansofWestTexas/_whatsnew.msnw

Very informative and interesting reads that remind me that at least some christians do still put Love before Hate.

among killer diseases, breast cancer and AIDS arenít even near the top of the list. Breast cancer is eighth, AIDS 17th.

That may be the case in America, however AIDS is far bigger of a killer world-wide. And in most of the rest of the third world AIDS is not mostly passed among homosexuals but by everyone for a number of reasons. One of the biggest is the absolute taboo nature of contraception in most of the third world as a result of religions and cultural traditions. Another is the non regulated prostitution in the poorer parts of the world that is spreading the disease at alarming rates. Along with that is drug use and improper use of needles for vaccines.

I watched a very sad documentary of an Indian man who got HIV by having sex with a prostitute during one of his long work related trips away from home. His wife wanted a child and culturally they would of been outcasted for not producing one. So they had sex and the wife did contract HIV as well, yet fortunately enough through some procedures and medicines their child was born without HIV. The solution to HIV/AIDS is through education and awareness of what sex is and what these viruses are. It is not through saying you are "sinning" or "going to hell" for being a sexual being, but simply make people aware that without protection and precaution there is a lifetime of unneeded pain they might get themselves trapped in. Adding eternal damnation on top of the cake does not help!

First you didn't like having to pay health benefits for homosexuals. But the information you posted was about government funding to RESEARCH. Not health benefits.

This is why it is important because health benefits would only help American citizens really, while Research is something that will help the whole world.

Even though it may be off topic, I don't think anyone should be able to get married outside of a church, or in a church in which they are not members, or if the priest/bishop/whatever doesn't want to marry them. I think marriage is strictly a church thing, so the churches should decide.

That bothers me because my parents are of two different faiths and declining marriage of a religiously mixed couple, to me at least, seems wrong. Love and devoution to each other matters more then if they worship the same god or don't. I would be rather angry if you (or someone sharing that opinion so strongly) were to be on the Supreme Court, unless you could seperate the ethics of law and personal opinion.

It's only a sin to yourself. You don't apply it to others. That is why you don't judge others, you love others. i.e. love thy neighbor, and don't have a "Holier than Thou" attitude, worry about yourself instead, just like Metallica said.

hmm... well my friend, quoting from Metallica is a two way street really. Wht do you think of songs like "The God that Failed" & "Leper Messiah"

I thought the stereotypical straight male was quite attracted by the idea of lesbians.

Most straight guys I know and have encounted at high school, college and the internet generally do get really attracted to lesbian porno and such. That is only my personal experience of it though and yeah I have met some guys who aren't turned on by lesbians.

...well this ends spending a long time reading this whole thread and I hope I've brought up some of my opinions and observatiosn that might be helpful to some. Anyway look forward to continue to comment on this thread and other ones. Since this thread concerns sexuality I'm open to people talking to me abot mine or their own, but perhaps using PM would work best for that.

np: ISIS- Constructing Towers

 

[matey]

hmm... well my friend, quoting from Metallica is a two way street really. Wht do you think of songs like "The God that Failed" & "Leper Messiah"

np: ISIS- Constructing Towers

Also songs I like from Metallica, anything in particular about them?

 

[Jaymes]

-mod-

Let's keep it on topic, guys. You can create another thread about Metallica if you want.

-mod-

 

[matey]

many catholics seem to do this though. In particular when it comes to shrines and images to certain saints.




I was raised catholic and more then liekly avoided ending up like this due to the fact that my Mother is catholic and my Father is jewish. I could not except the idea that one half of my family were spiritually wrong or inferrior or from what my young mind concieved, "couldn't believe they'd go to hell".

np: Neurosis- Stones From The Sky

Keyword: seem.

I can relate to the latter part of your quote.

 

[nonda]

I don't not believe that a person can be born gay, just not logical. Humans are not born with those type of instincts. It is simply sexual perferecne. As far as it being a sin not sure, my mother says anything you do that makes you feel guilty, well that's a sin!!

 

[Jaymes]

Why wouldn't humans be born with those types of instincts? If people didn't have instincts one way or another about sex we wouldn't have figured out how to do it in the first place.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

I don't not believe that a person can be born gay, just not logical. Humans are not born with those type of instincts. It is simply sexual perferecne.

Were you born straight?

 

[Fluffy]

Were you born straight?

Don't be silly :clap

 

[Sunstone]

A minority of people are born left handed, and it seems a minority of people are born gay. The science suggesting people are born gay, rather than convert to homosexuality, is not yet conclussive, but that's where the weight of current evidence comes down. So, barring some upset in the science, it's probably safe to say that people are born gay.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Sunstone put it much better than I did. (Brain functiong with no sleep but lots of Dr.Pepper does not make me the most articulate person. I'm sorry if I offended anyone!) I should have said "I assume you believe you were born straight." Although I'm an outsider looking in, I can only imagine that saying a person cannot be born gay makes exactly as much sense as saying that one cannot be born straight.

 

[michel]

I don't not believe that a person can be born gay, just not logical. Humans are not born with those type of instincts. It is simply sexual perferecne. As far as it being a sin not sure, my mother says anything you do that makes you feel guilty, well that's a sin!!

Err, excuse me...........who said that ? - oh, it's your opinion, I see...........

Sexual preference hey ? - ah yes, I know what you mean; as in "Oh this morning I think I'll be gay, for fun, I can have everybody glare at me, I can ostracise myself from society, give myself the opporunity of having far fewer potential partners out there in society, and, and while I am at it, I'll get people to call me rude names.............."

Is that really what you believe,nonda ? - or is it what you prefer to believe, because thinking your way makes you feel somewhat 'better' than they are, and more 'Moral', and righteous ?

I tend to agree with your mother - that is quite a good 'gauge' that I certainly use; please, look deep inside your heart, and think and learn about Gay people; try to put yourself in their position; then, perhaps you might begin to understand...........