Why is homosexuality a sin

[Phil Lawton]

Wow, Phil,
You do surprise me. A very concise person that pokes holes at someone else at all times. That is really great. You have picked my sentences clean and obliterated my grammar. You must have been a teacher at some point and if not you should be. Very good in your dissections. You are right on. I have no recourse other that you are very intelligent and did a good job and made me think. Thank you for that.
Best regards,

Bones.
...

It was the least I could do.

 

[Phil Lawton]

Well let's carry one this converstation.

A station for conver?

Bakersfield?? What did that mean?

Your style is reminiscent of that of residents of Bakersfield...you are in California, aren't you?

I am currently an automation engineer, my education is with chemical and mechanical engineering if that is what you are asking.

That wasn't my question, but what is it that you engineer the automation of?

Not that it should matter.

It doesn't, but as you mentioned it...

The DNA comment got cut off, it was a reaponse that was to prove my point, show me DNA samples that tell your theory and then I will listen.

So...for you to listen to a claimant re his or her belief that his or her religion is greater than any other, you want DNA evidence? What...like sperm samples or something? And what, pray, would you do with them? Hmmm...is this just to help you in some strange hobby?

But why is it that you and you alone can confirm or deny the superiority of one belief over another with DNA? Is this part of your science knowledge?

Wow...you must have aced science at university.

I am a very science minded engineer

What does this mean?

that has worked with biologics for an extended period of time.

Biologics? Is that a science term or an engineering term? Or is it a ninja term?

I have been a scientist and now I am in the engineering field.

Which field of science?

Not that it should matter

You've already said that.

I would hope that you hold the same regard for a lay person as you would someone who has no college background.

It depends...it they were talking a lot of crap about something they patently knew nothing about, it wouldn't matter what their qualifications supposedly were....they'd still be spouting crap.

Do you paint?

I work with people everyday who have not had any college classes in their life

Dependant on what branch of automation you and your uneducated colleagues are working together on, should we be worried about what systems we use?

and they are some of the most intelligent people I have ever worked with

Intelligence schmintelligence...I want someone qualified to be working on the automated systems these people are working on. Bertrand Russell was intelligent, but I wouldn't want him doing preventative maintenance on an elevator. What's the name of your company? I will write to them immediately.

Especially when you compare them with the high priced engineers I work with everyday

If the "high priced engineers" know what they're doing, I don't care how much they cost.

Tell me, what's the best trick you've ever done on a skateboard?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

MOD POST

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[Phil Lawton]

Duly noted.

 

[Crowley]

"Crowly

I would direct you to the post directly above your last one. While you are clearly very certain in your understanding of how certain words in the OT should be translated there are many people that disagree with you."

Many do disagree with me that murder is a sin, that adultery is a sin, and the other sins as well, (some people commit these acts daily) yet they are still sins because God said they are sins. I understand that some people don't agree with me, I knew this before I posted, but what I posted is not my opinion, it is what the Bible says. If some folks don't want to agree with God, that is their choice. It doesn't change what God said about homosexuality. As a Christian I will not compromise.

 

[Phil Lawton]

"Crowly

I would direct you to the post directly above your last one. While you are clearly very certain in your understanding of how certain words in the OT should be translated there are many people that disagree with you."

Many do disagree with me that murder is a sin, that adultery is a sin, and the other sins as well, (some people commit these acts daily) yet they are still sins because God said they are sins. I understand that some people don't agree with me, I knew this before I posted, but what I posted is not my opinion, it is what the Bible says. If some folks don't want to agree with God, that is their choice. It doesn't change what God said about homosexuality. As a Christian I will not compromise.

But, C, isn't quoting the bible actually quoting what some other humans said, rather than something that a God said?

It's akin to abiding by the opinion of some bloke you overheard.

And, if you're going to stick by this, do you adhere to the rest of the bible so closely? Or do you cherry-pick the pieces you can/want adapt to modern life and/or your own set of values?

 

[Trassin]

"Crowly
Many do disagree with me that murder is a sin, that adultery is a sin, and the other sins as well, (some people commit these acts daily) yet they are still sins because God said they are sins. I understand that some people don't agree with me, I knew this before I posted, but what I posted is not my opinion, it is what the Bible says. If some folks don't want to agree with God, that is their choice. It doesn't change what God said about homosexuality. As a Christian I will not compromise.

You missed the point of my message. What I was trying to get you to understand is that the interpritation of the bible you are using isn't universally agreed upon by everyone, including faithful Christians. If the words of the bible are missinterprited then that does change our understanding of what God said about homosexuality. Below is a site that will explain the missinterpritation I'm refering to.


www worldpolicy org/globalrights/sexorient/bible-gay html

where there should be "." I left spaces due to not have enough posts yet to post url's

 

[Autodidact]

" Jesus never said anything about homosexuality."

Jesus never said anything about molesting kids either, or having sex with a horse. Or masturbation.
Homosexuality is a sin simply because God said so. Why is murder a sin? because God said so. Adultery? because God said so. On Sinai God told us what is sin.
Homosexuality is a sin and an abomination to God.
In the New testament, murder is still a sin, so is adultery, lying, stealing, bearing false witness, and men lying with men or animals.
Why was the ground Moses stood on holy? Because it did good works? because it paid tithes? It was holy because God said so.
Paul never contradicted Jesus and his teachings were in keeping with the Torah.
Paul knew that Jesus was the Torah.
Sin is the transgression of the law.
The law is what God said.
Therefore homosexuality is a sin and Jesus never changed the law, but fulfilled every law God gave to Israel.

What is a sin is what God says is a sin? And what God doesn't mention is not a sin? Is that your position?

p.s. What about all the things that God says are sins, some of them forever, and modern Christians do not regard as sins? Did God change his mind?

 

[Autodidact]

Mr. Crusader,

Yes people are born homosexual. It is a proven scientific fact. So you are wrong there. It is not a learned behavior as you may think.

Well, this is probably an exaggeration of the current state of scientific knowledge. There is some recent research that indicates that some homosexuality, particularly male homosexuality, may be inborn/genetic. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a proven scientific fact.

 

[Autodidact]

"Crowly

I would direct you to the post directly above your last one. While you are clearly very certain in your understanding of how certain words in the OT should be translated there are many people that disagree with you."

Many do disagree with me that murder is a sin, that adultery is a sin, and the other sins as well, (some people commit these acts daily) yet they are still sins because God said they are sins. I understand that some people don't agree with me, I knew this before I posted, but what I posted is not my opinion, it is what the Bible says. If some folks don't want to agree with God, that is their choice. It doesn't change what God said about homosexuality. As a Christian I will not compromise.

I don't believe that was the point of the post you were quoting. I believe the import of that post was that people would disagree with you about what God actually said, as He said it in ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek, and people disagree about how the terms are translated. I'm sure you would agree that if you want to know what God said, then you need to know what the words He used meant. Many people believe that God did not prohibit homosexuality at all, but only male-male Temple prostitution. I myself neither speak nor read Hebrew or Greek, so am not qualified to have an opinion on the question. I do understand that scholars are divided, however.

 

[Crowley]

You missed the point of my message. What I was trying to get you to understand is that the interpritation of the bible you are using isn't universally agreed upon by everyone, including faithful Christians. If the words of the bible are missinterprited then that does change our understanding of what God said about homosexuality. Below is a site that will explain the missinterpritation I'm refering to.


www worldpolicy org/globalrights/sexorient/bible-gay html

where there should be "." I left spaces due to not have enough posts yet to post url's

Even nature teaches this is wrong.
Are you aware of what the colon is? The rectum is not made for what homosexuals do. No way.
It is designed by God for waste to be expelled, not for anything to be shoved up into it. If it is constantly abused it becomes loose and soon it is not able to control the bowel movements, this is a medical fact. This is not God. You want me to believe God did this? No, he did not. I have read doctors reports on homosexual men.

(copy and paste)gay arguments;The main story used by Christians (Genesis 19-Sodom and Gomorrah) to refute homosexuality wasn’t about gay people at all. Instead, Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because they weren’t hospitable to the visitors. When the angry mob wanted to “know” the new visitors, they meant sexual intercourse, not social conversation. Why else would Lot have offered his two virgin daughters instead? Let's be honest and reasonable here.

(copy and paste)The "gay gene" has been refuted by researchers; Even if someone could prove that homosexuals are genetically predisposed to same-sex attractions, that does not license them to sin. Indeed practically all humans have an innately strong sexual drive, but are required, both by the Bible and moral laws of the land, to restrict those desires. Lastly, human beings have the freedom to make choices and act upon impulses and feelings, yet humans can also exhibit restraint and self-control.

Doctors in emergency rooms report that many homosexual men go in there with many different objects stuck in their rectums (flashlights, cucumbers, zucchinni, etc. thus damaging their bodies, causing shame and embarrassment and pain. It is a proven fact the rectum is not designed by God to recieve anything into it, only to expel waste. The sphincter muscles are disigned to move something downward not pull it into, this alone is a proof that sodomy is not what God intended.
One man died in an emergecny room because he had sex wqith a horse. The horse's organ ripped his insides apart killing him. His "friends" dropped him off there. Shall we also say the Bible is wrong about bestiality and murder, adultery and the rest?
Using the homosexual argument, murder and beastility and adutery is not wrong either, it is in how it is interpreted.
Any sin can be made to seem okay using these arguments.
But God said that men who lie with men is an abomination and worthy of death.
God made men to love women, to be the priest and provider and protector of their homes, not to end up dying of Aids, experiencing extreme shame and embarrassment in emergency rooms when a doctor is needed to extract a large object from his rectum.
And being beaten to death by people who can't handle the gay life when it is presented to them.
God loves the gay, but commands him to repent.
This is not God.

 

[Autodidact]

Even nature teaches this is wrong.
Are you aware of what the colon is? The rectum is not made for what homosexuals do. No way.
It is designed by God for waste to be expelled, not for anything to be shoved up into it. If it is constantly abused it becomes loose and soon it is not able to control the bowel movements, this is a medical fact. This is not God. You want me to believe God did this? No, he did not. I have read doctors reports on homosexual men.


Doctors in emergency rooms report that many homosexual men go in there with many different objects stuck in their rectums (flashlights, cucumbers, zucchinni, etc. thus damaging their bodies, causing shame and embarrassment and pain. It is a proven fact the rectum is not designed by God to recieve anything into it, only to expel waste. The sphincter muscles are disigned to move something downward not pull it into, this alone is a proof that sodomy is not what God intended.
One man died in an emergecny room because he had sex wqith a horse. The horse's organ ripped his insides apart killing him. His "friends" dropped him off there. Shall we also say the Bible is wrong about bestiality and murder, adultery and the rest?

You are conflating homosexuality with anal sex. Many gay men and heterosexuals practice anal sex; few lesbians do, for obvious reasons. Therefore lesbians, once again, are better than anyone else?
Many gay people, male and female, do not practice anal sex. Many straight people do.

I believe your medical information is exaggerated and inaccurate, and anal sex is less dangerous than you describe.

Be ware of inserting your religious beliefs, ("God intended") into your scientific descriptions.

 

[rocka21]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=876983#post876983

we are picking this debate up here also.

this thread is at 36 and counting,

ours is only 3 so far, but will soon be to 36. LOL

 

[Crowley]

You are conflating homosexuality with anal sex.

I know what I speak of.

Many gay men and heterosexuals practice anal sex; few lesbians do, for obvious reasons. Therefore lesbians, once again, are better than anyone else?
Many gay people, male and female, do not practice anal sex. Many straight people do.

Matters not how you slice it up, God said it is a sin. There is no loophole for the gay.

I believe your medical information is exaggerated and inaccurate, and anal sex is less dangerous than you describe.

I read this in a medical book when I was researching something else. They used homosexuality as an example of how the anal can be damaged if not properly viewed and understood.

Be ware of inserting your religious beliefs, ("God intended") into your scientific descriptions.

God said is my belief.

 

[Crowley]

Shall we also say the Bible is wrong about bestiality and murder, adultery and the rest?
Using the homosexual argument, murder and beastility and adultery is not wrong either, it is in how it is interpreted.
Any sin can be made to seem okay using these arguments.

 

[Autodidact]

I know what I speak of.

? Huh? Are you disputing what I said? Many heterosexuals engage in anal sex, while few lesbians do. Do you disagree?

Matters not how you slice it up, God said it is a sin. There is no loophole for the gay.

Fond of making unsupported assertions much? As I pointed out earlier, it is not at all clear that God said this. What is clear is that lesbianism is not prohibited.

I read this in a medical book when I was researching something else. They used homosexuality as an example of how the anal can be damaged if not properly viewed and understood.

If anal sex is harmful; it's harmful, whether gay or straight. (I'm loathe to google it, frankly.)

God said is my belief.

Exactly. Don't state your beliefs as fact, and don't insert your beliefs into scientific descriptions.

 

[Autodidact]

Shall we also say the Bible is wrong about bestiality and murder, adultery and the rest?
Using the homosexual argument, murder and beastility and adultery is not wrong either, it is in how it is interpreted.
Any sin can be made to seem okay using these arguments.

No, homosexuality is different from these things in regard to a key moral factor: it increases happiness without inflicting suffering. It increases love, without harming anyone. If you can't see the difference between loving someone and killing them, your moral understanding is in need of serious development.

Does it bother you at all when God commands people to kill other people who have done nothing to harm them, including children and babies? Because using your argument, this is okay.

 

[Crowley]

No, homosexuality is different from these things in regard to a key moral factor: it increases happiness without inflicting suffering.

Someone (not a child or sibling of mine) close to me was a homosexual. I saw up close his life. As a child he liked to wear girl's clothes, lipstick, etc. He grew up to be a big burly guy who loved the color pink. I loved him as a friend. He was one of the most sweetest people I ever had the privelege to know. I still get tears when I remember how he was treated by society. I saw his loneliness, his pain, abguish and his shame. He was rejected and hated, but my family and I loved him for who he was regardless of his lifestyle. The church he attended threw him out. When I heard he was dying (quite young) I traveled far to see him. I hugged him and told him again I loved him. He agreed to repent and recieved Jesus into his heart. I have no doubt he is in heaven now.
He was a very sad, depressed and lonely guy. He often thought of suicide. He asked me if I hated him because of his being gay. I told him that it made me love him more because according to my understanding of God, he needed more love than the average bear. Homosexuality is not a happy life for anyone and no one will make me believe that God blesses it in some gays, but not for my friend. I don't think so. My dear friend knew he was an outcast, a misfit among the normal life God created for men and women. To God's glory I say that his parents said it was our love for him that kept him going in his life.

It increases love, without harming anyone. If you can't see the difference between loving someone and killing them, your moral understanding is in need of serious development.

My dear friend's lifestyle never increased love for him, but it increased love in us for him; the Christian family who loved him. He was never able to love himself.

Does it bother you at all when God commands people to kill other people who have done nothing to harm them, including children and babies? Because using your argument, this is okay.

I take it you refer to the OT? We can go there if you want, but I can see right now your understanding of it is wrong. God is perfect if one can understand his Word.

 

[Autodidact]

Someone (not a child or sibling of mine) close to me was a homosexual. I saw up close his life. As a child he liked to wear girl's clothes, lipstick, etc. He grew up to be a big burly guy who loved the color pink. I loved him as a friend. He was one of the most sweetest people I ever had the privelege to know. I still get tears when I remember how he was treated by society. I saw his loneliness, his pain, abguish and his shame. He was rejected and hated, but my family and I loved him for who he was regardless of his lifestyle. The church he attended threw him out. When I heard he was dying (quite young) I traveled far to see him. I hugged him and told him again I loved him. He agreed to repent and recieved Jesus into his heart. I have no doubt he is in heaven now.
He was a very sad, depressed and lonely guy. He often thought of suicide. He asked me if I hated him because of his being gay. I told him that it made me love him more because according to my understanding of God, he needed more love than the average bear. Homosexuality is not a happy life for anyone and no one will make me believe that God blesses it in some gays, but not for my friend. I don't think so. My dear friend knew he was an outcast, a misfit among the normal life God created for men and women. To God's glory I say that his parents said it was our love for him that kept him going in his life.

thank you for sharing this story. What I get is that you knew one very nice homosexual who was not happy, probably because society and the church rejected him, is that right?
1. Quite possibly had he been accepted by society, the church and himself he would have been quite happy.
2. I am a homosexual. I am quite a happy, productive, fulfilled person. While my life has its bumps, overall it's a good one, and I am satisfied with it and myself. I can attest to the fact that by living in integrity and loving and being loved, a homsexual person can be both happy and a positive contribution to society.
3. Your friend was one, and I am one. Not a good idea to generalize much from a single example.

My dear friend's lifestyle never increased love for him, but it increased love in us for him; the Christian family who loved him. He was never able to love himself.

That is sad. It's hard to be happy when you hate yourself. We should encourage all people to love themselves as they are, or, for a theist like yourself, as God made them.

I take it you refer to the OT? We can go there if you want, but I can see right now your understanding of it is wrong. God is perfect if one can understand his Word.

Arrogant much? Nice of you to drop down from heaven for a moment to fill us in on what is right and what is wrong. How about if we argue it out, and let the lurkers decide for themselves whose understanding is right? I'm fine with going there, but it may be enough of a derail to justify a new thread--up to you.

How about my key point, that there is an important moral distinction between loving and murdering?

 

[Smoke]

Doctors in emergency rooms report that many homosexual men go in there with many different objects stuck in their rectums (flashlights, cucumbers, zucchinni, etc. thus damaging their bodies, causing shame and embarrassment and pain.

It's true enough that men often get into trouble putting odd things into their rectums, but you're incredibly naive if you think it's always, or even mostly, gay men. There are plenty of gay men who don't care for anal stimulation (I'm one of them) and plenty of straight men who do.

And being beaten to death by people who can't handle the gay life when it is presented to them.

An excellent example of Christian morals. Thank you for making the point.