• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why is there no Prophet of our time?

dynavert2012

Active Member
In fact, the Muslims greatly mistake in thinking that Diving Revelation has ended!
Specifically, Muslims often interpret the Qur'an as stating that Muhammad, being the Seal of the Prophets, is the final prophet and that there will be no more Divine Messengers sent by God (or Allah).

But actually, IOV this whole “last prophet” thing is based upon a misunderstanding!

There are in fact several different explanations of the verse in the Qur’an saying Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets (a statement we Baha’is accept, please note!):

well, and what makes you accept an Interpretation over another?
First off, there is a sense in which EVERY Divine Messenger is the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, and the Seal
Next, there are multiple Arabic words that all translate into English as "One of these is "nabi," which refers to a minor prophet such as Jeremiah or Amos.

Another is Ras'ul, which means a major, religion-founding Divine Messenger like Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha'u'llah (our Founder). (And yes, Muhammad was a major--not a minor--Prophet.)[
But the word actually used in the Qur'an is "nabi," meaning Muhammad was the Seal of the minor prophets! This says nothing whatever about the great Divine Messengers. Muhammad is also the Seal in the sense that He was the last Messenger during the Prophetic Age, which began with Adam and ended with Him. The Bab then closed out that Age and opened the Age of Fulfillment, of which Baha'u'llah is the first major Messenger.
i don't care how many Arabic words would be translated to the word "Prophet" let's focus only on the word "nabi vs Rasoul" you have a valid point in it, but you missed an important something, each Rasoul should be Nabi, but each Nabi may not be Rasoul
the word Nabi is wider than the word Rasoul, the word Nabi contains those who Allah had revealed to them even if he doesn't command them to send this revelation to mankind, example is prophet Joseph, Allah revealed to him but he didn't order him to deliver this revelation to the Egyptians, and so he would be called Nabi only, but Rasoul is commanded to deliver this revealtion to mankind like the founder you mentioned and then i call him nabi or rasoul, so Rasoul must be a nabi at first, and though when Allah said Mohamed is the last prophet that means he's also the last messenger, as the definition of messenger to me is : a prophet who Allah commanded him to deliver the revelation to mankind
second, i'm not quran only muslim, so i do believe in what called Hadith, and so that there's a plenty enough of hadith that mentioned clearly that Mohamed is the last messenger / prophet
third, Allah said " This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion." quran 5:3
so Allah had approved Islam as a religion for us, you don't even call yourself a sect or a branch of Islam in order to say that you still under this verse, actually Baha'i are out of that verse as they don't accept Islam as a valid religion any more and so how do you interpret this verse, except if you said that Quran is corrupted

fourth, let's think about the three major religions in that world, Islam, Christianity and Judaism, and compare them to Baha'i

before Moses and Mohamed had been died they had crushed their enemies and after years of their death, their followers had ruled at least the middle east, and Christianity the same the only difference that Jesus wasn't warrior in his life before he being rosen up to Allah, but he would be when he will be sent down, so Baha'i is out of context of three divine religions
 

dynavert2012

Active Member
I'm curious about one thing... Of those who have answered already, and for those who answer from here on out, do any of you believe that there was a time when there were living prophets? I mean true prophets, men called by God to deliver a message to large groups of people. People like Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah. If you believe they were all frauds, I can understand why you would believe the same thing about a prophet today; that would make perfect sense. But if you believe they were actually true prophets, why would you deny that God could and probably would call a prophet in this day and age? After all, He is supposedly the same today as He was yesterday. Do we no longer need direction from Him? Does He not love us as much as He loved the people of the Old Testament? Has He lost His ability to communicate to us?

the matter isn't about love and care, the matter is about the need? do you really need a new message or not? as we still have a valid message that had not been corrupted, then we are not in a need of a new message
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
Because we live in saner times. People are generally better educated now than the relatively isolated and uneducated Israel of Biblical times. A prophet now would be required to substantiate his or her claims. And no such evidence could ever, ever exist.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Actually I am a prophet of God for our time. But I'm shy and don't like to preach. Do you have questions?

No, only a scriptural quote:

"37
“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather, follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”


-- The Book of Laws, p. 32, [roughly 130 years ago]

End of story.

Bruce
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
No, only a scriptural quote:

"37
“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather, follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”


-- The Book of Laws, p. 32, [roughly 130 years ago]

End of story.

Bruce

Yeah, Baha'u'llah was confused about that. I'm sorry.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
well, and what makes you accept an Interpretation over another?

I said nothing about accepting any particular interpretation. What I meant was that we accept the Qur'an as a whole.

And yes, any Ras'ul is also a nabi. No problem.

As to hadith, though, we reject them entirely as unreliable save for the few explicitly quoted in our own scriptures. Indeed, not even the Muslims themselves can agree on which ones are valid!

Baha'i is out of context of three divine religions

On the contrary, there are many, MANY prophecies about its Advent, including in those religions! I refer you to this site for details:

http://www.bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled

Peace, :)

Bruce
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
well, and what makes you accept an Interpretation over another?

i don't care how many Arabic words would be translated to the word "Prophet" let's focus only on the word "nabi vs Rasoul" you have a valid point in it, but you missed an important something, each Rasoul should be Nabi, but each Nabi may not be Rasoul
the word Nabi is wider than the word Rasoul, the word Nabi contains those who Allah had revealed to them even if he doesn't command them to send this revelation to mankind, example is prophet Joseph, Allah revealed to him but he didn't order him to deliver this revelation to the Egyptians, and so he would be called Nabi only, but Rasoul is commanded to deliver this revealtion to mankind like the founder you mentioned and then i call him nabi or rasoul, so Rasoul must be a nabi at first, and though when Allah said Mohamed is the last prophet that means he's also the last messenger, as the definition of messenger to me is : a prophet who Allah commanded him to deliver the revelation to mankind

It seems you missed my previous reply.


second, i'm not quran only muslim, so i do believe in what called Hadith, and so that there's a plenty enough of hadith that mentioned clearly that Mohamed is the last messenger / prophet
And there are plenty of Quran verses talk about future messengers and revelations.
See some of them I posted in my previous post.

third, Allah said " This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion." quran 5:3
so Allah had approved Islam as a religion for us, you don't even call yourself a sect or a branch of Islam in order to say that you still under this verse, actually Baha'i are out of that verse as they don't accept Islam as a valid religion any more and so how do you interpret this verse, except if you said that Quran is corrupted
That you quote this verse to say the Revelation of Quran is Final, is very similar to what the People of the Book do.
For example they quote the verse of Bible that Jesus said:
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

But As we look at the topic of the completion of religion in the light of the whole Qur'an, we find that religion is described as being completed, in quite a few verses (in addition to verse 5:3).

For instance, we find that God's favor was completed at the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph:

And thus will your Lord choose you and teach you the interpretation of sayings and make His favor complete to you and to the children of Jacob, as He made it complete before to your fathers, Abraham and Isaac; surely your Lord is knowing, wise.
- Qur'an 12:6

We also find that God completed His favor through Moses:

Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favor) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
- Qur'an 6:154

According to the Qur'an, the completion of the favor is also conditional upon the individual's success in obeying and fearing God:

And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turn your face towards it, so that people shall have no accusation against you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on you and that you may walk on the right course.
- Qur'an 2:150

Some argue however, that while "completion" of the favor may not be unique to Muslims, "perfection" of the religion is.

This is a matter of interpretation, and it certainly is the prerogative of the translators to have chosen the word "perfected" for the Arabic word "akmaltu". For Arabs (and others familiar with the language) however, while the word definitely conveys the meaning of perfection, and wholeness, it is also very often used to mean "completion" as we find in verses: 2:185, 2:196, 2:233, and 16:25 among others.

This same theme has also caused followers of other religions to believe that their religion was complete, not only for the duration it was destined, but for all times. For example we see that for the Christians, the favors of God were also completed on humanity through Jesus:

"And ye are complete in Him [i.e. Jesus] , which is the head of all principality and power"
- The Epistle to the Colossians, Chapter 2

"Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God."
- The Epistle to the Colossians, Chapter 4

It is also necessary to remember, that both completeness and perfection are among God's attributes, integral to His Essence (magnified be His name). It would be blasphemous to doubt that any of His actions and doings or favors, would be anything but complete and perfect.


Therefore As it is revealed in Quran, each Age has its Book:

"Apostles truly have we already sent before thee, and wives and offspring have we given them. Yet no apostle had come with miracles unless by the leave of God. To each age its Book." ar-Ra`d 13:38

According to this verse Quran was a Book for its own Age, and is not the last Book.


Now we have to ask ourselves without denying the Reality:
Did the Worldwide Community of Muslims kept its unity and walked according to the Quran?


“Lo! Ye are they, who are called to expend for the Cause of God: and some of you are niggards (stingy) but whoso is niggardly shall be niggard only to his own loss, for God is the rich and ye are the poor: and if ye turn back, he will change you for another people, and they shall not be your like

Muhammad 47:38




Muhammad was asked who were the people He referred to as “another people”, who were to replace the Arabs? One of His famous followers, Salman Farsi, a Persian, was sitting near Him. Muhammad patted the legs of Salman and said: “He and his people” and He continued: “By the True One, in Whose hands is My life, if the Faith of God should be suspended in the Pleiades, surely men from Persia shall reach it.” (This tradition is accepted by Sunnis and Shiites and is included by Nasafi in his book, Vol 4, page 169, as well as by Muhammad Farid Vajdi, in his book, third edition, page 676)

Also Here:

The Life of Imam Abu Hanifah


Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah were from Persia, fulfilling the above prophecy!

fourth, let's think about the three major religions in that world, Islam, Christianity and Judaism, and compare them to Baha'i

before Moses and Mohamed had been died they had crushed their enemies and after years of their death, their followers had ruled at least the middle east, and Christianity the same the only difference that Jesus wasn't warrior in his life before he being rosen up to Allah, but he would be when he will be sent down, so Baha'i is out of context of three divine religions

Do you know how long it took for Christianity to be spread around the earth?

Moreover, historically Islam progressed using sword and wars, where the matter of fact is, this was not ordered by God or His messengers, so it diviated from its origin.
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
If we look at the three major monolithic faiths from the time of Adam to the Islamic prophet Muhammad, throughout that period there has been a steady progression of prophets and messengers from God. Why is there no prophet of our time? Why has God chosen to be silent in our darkest time? It would be nice to hear the views of all religions on this subject.

According to Shia Islam, at any point of time there must be a human being appointed by God to Guide and warn mankind...

Who is the appointed one in our time? why many people don't know about him? and all of the questions related to this topic have been answered by Shia Muslims through their concept of Imam Mahdi (atf) who will appear at the end of time to bring justice and guidance to the whole earth...

Just search the shia websites for the word Mahdi.
 

obsidian

Bilateral
It's easier to acclimate a modern mentality to an established entity than it is to produce crediblity in a new entity....which is why newer religions hit you hard with historical background on their figure. A new prophet would be suspicious to most as they simply have no credible history. There are modern prophets, but they are not as pronounced.
 

dynavert2012

Active Member
If you mean by a Valid Message 'Islam' then I disagree. I agree that Quran is left uncorrupted. But what I disagree is that the Message of Islamic Revelation is not the original Message that was intended by God and His Prophet, for after 1400 years, the Religion is turned into many sects, each made up their own Tafseers and Interpretations, and even some added their own Laws. You see some of Imams made Laws such as 'Soccer' is Haram. These are corruption in Religion, and therefore a New Revelation was required.
i think those Imams don't say Soccer is Haram, they say showing your thigh is Haram, surly the god won't send messengers to correct such small things, may dividing the Ummah to sects could be a strong reason
but as you believe that Quran is uncorrupted and it's 100% word of god, then you shouldn't blame me when i follow those words of god
Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam quran 3:19
And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. 3:85
This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion 5:3
but i'm blaming you for not following those words of god, you don't even claim yourself as the only right sect of Islam, no you claimed a new religion, how this claim would work with such verses unless you need to say that quran had been corrupted.


This belief contradicts with Quran that confirms Torah and Injil that existed at the Time of Muhammad to be reliable. Moreover, according to many other Hadithes Torah and Injil could not have been corrupted for God rewarded the Jews who followed it till when Jesus came.
In fact, this belief that Torah and Injil got corrupted is a man-made belief, that was added later to Islam, by some of Muslim Leaders to justify Islam, which has not proof, and there is no single verse in Quran to confirm this if you read Quran and think about its message as a whole and carefully (without pre-judging!)

i do appreciate if you post me where you got from quran that quran considers torah and gospel as a reliable sources, and if it's reliable sources how do you could explain the too much contradictions between Quran and both books
i can prove that quran claimed that both books had been corrupted literally not only their interpretations, Allah said "So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. 2:79, if you read the context of that verse, Allah was talking about Jews.


The belief that after Muhammad there won't be another Revelation is a man-made idea that was created later in Islam. Quran declares God will send Messengers, and His Book in Writing will never be exhausted.

Hope to hear where Quran says that "Another messengers will be sent again"

Let's do some investigation as what was intended by the Term 'Seal" in Quran.

The Word is "Khatam" in Arabic. Muhammad is called Khatam Al-Nabeen.

In Old times, "Khatam" was a stone on rings that was used either as 'Ornament" or as "Stamp" to Seal a document.

So, it is merely an interpretation that Seal means 'Last' or 'End'

In fact in Bible it is said:

"... on Jesus, God has set his Seal" John 6:27
(you can see the whole verse, I shortened it for brevity)

It does not mean, That God sealed His revelation and ended that with Jesus.
In this sense, 'Seal' means 'confirm'
One of the Missions of Muhammad was to confirm previous Prophets, hence the term 'Seal of Prophets"
In another sense, Muhammad was the Ornament of Prophets. Like an ornament on a ring, as an analogy.

For example Muhammad called Ali, 'Seal of Believers" ('Khatamul Auliya) that does not mean, He was the last believer.
Aisha, the wife of the Muhammad states;[33]
"Say he is 'seal of prophets' but do not say there is no prophet after him."[34]
See here: Khatam an-Nabuwwah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

well, going throw the Arabic language rules won't lead to solve the conflict, there are hadiths that said the prophet is the last one, one of therm "if there a prophet me it would be Omar" the word if in arabic is used to give the impssible assumptions another one, he said to Ali, " do you accept to be to me like Harun to moses but there's no prophet after me"
this cuts your interpretations
Then after this we come to investigating Hadithes. There are infact Hadithes when Muhammad said, after Him no prophet comes. But we need to understand what that means within its context.

For example:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number."

The above Hadith says that, after Moses and before Jesus, there came a number of Minor Prophets (Nabi's) as a promoter of Religion of Moses. These Prophets were Aaron, Solomon, David,...etc. They did not have a Revelation from God with a New Book and Laws, but they had come to teach Moses Laws and guide Jews. So, the Hadith deals with prophethood within the dispensation of Islam. similar to Prophets within the dispensation of Moses. Muhammad said after Him, in Islam only Khalifs come, not prophets.

That does not mean that the Revelation of God ended, even as God said in Quran:

"O children of Adam, verily apostles from among you shall come unto you, who shall expound my signs unto you: Whosoever therefore shall fear God and amend, there shall come no fear on them, neither shall they be grieved."
al-A`raf 7:35

And according to following verse the Revelation of God has not ended:

"And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of God be exhausted (in the writing): for God is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom."
Luqman 31:27


Obviously the above shows the Quran is not the final revelation.

:facepalm: how from the above you reach that conclusion !
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
i think those Imams don't say Soccer is Haram, they say showing your thigh is Haram, surly the god won't send messengers to correct such small things,
According to Quran, it is Shirk, when religious leaders add to the Laws, and people follow and obey. That signifies significant corruption in religion, equivallent to Shirk. This is clearly said about Christians who are considered as taking their Leaders as gods. - Refer to Quran

may dividing the Ummah to sects could be a strong reason
but as you believe that Quran is uncorrupted and it's 100% word of god, then you shouldn't blame me when i follow those words of god
I would not blame you anyways. Everyone is responsible for his own actions and belief.

Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam quran 3:19
And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. 3:85
This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion 5:3
but i'm blaming you for not following those words of god, you don't even claim yourself as the only right sect of Islam, no you claimed a new religion, how this claim would work with such verses unless you need to say that quran had been corrupted.

The verses you are refering in no wise mean the Only acceptable Religion is Revelation that came to Muhammad, unless you say by Islam is meant just a 'Name' that refers to only Revelation that came to Muhammad.
On the contrary, Quran teaches that Islam means surrender or resignation of one’s will to God’s will and whoever follows Islam is a Muslim. The Qur’an refers to followers of other religions that believe in God as Muslims, for example, Noah is called a Muslim. (Refer to surah of Yunus)
Moses and His followers are called Muslims (A’raf) and (Yunus )
Disciples of Christ are called Muslims – “And when I revealed unto the Disciples, (of Christ), ‘Believe in Me and on My Sent One!’ they said, ‘We believe; and bear witness we are Muslims’.” (Ma’idah)​


Therefore the verse you are refering to, should be understood, that the True Religion is 'Submission to God's Will', past, present and Future Revelations!

"The Apostle of God said: `There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur'an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it. The mosques will be full of people but they will be empty of right guidance. The religious leaders (Fuqaha) of that day will be the most evil religious leaders under the heavens; sedition and dissension will go out from them and to them will it return.'"
- Ibn Babuya, Thawab ul-A'mal
- Also, in Al-Bihar, by Al-Majlisi, Vol 13, Page 155
- Also, in Kanz Al-amal #766
i do appreciate if you post me where you got from quran that quran considers torah and gospel as a reliable sources, and if it's reliable sources how do you could explain the too much contradictions between Quran and both books
i can prove that quran claimed that both books had been corrupted literally not only their interpretations, Allah said "So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. 2:79, if you read the context of that verse, Allah was talking about Jews.

This verse was revealed regarding the Jewish leaders who were living at the time of Muhammad. It is not talking about the Jews living thousands of years before Muhammad, neither the verse is talking about Torah.

The following verse of Quran is talking to the people of the Book who were living at the time of Muhammad and asking them to follow the Gospel:

"Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith." Quran 5:68

If Injil that existed at the time of Muhammad was corrupted, there was no reason God asks them to follow it.

Moreover, the following Sahih Hadith confirms the People of the Book who followed it till next Revelation were rewarded for it. If it was corrupted, they should not have been rewarded for following a corrupted Book:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "Your stay (in this world) in comparison to the stay of the nations preceding you, is like the period between 'Asr prayer and the sun set (in comparison to a whole day). The people of the Torah were given the Torah and they acted on it till midday and then they were unable to carry on. And they were given (a reward equal to) one Qirat each. Then the people of the Gospel were given the Gospel and they acted on it till 'Asr Prayer and then they were unable to carry on, so they were given la reward equal to) one Qirat each. Then you were given the Qur'an and you acted on it till sunset, therefore you were given (a reward equal to) two Qirats each. On that, the people of the Scriptures said, 'These people (Muslims) did less work than we but they took a bigger reward.' Allah said (to them). 'Have I done any oppression to you as regards your rights?' They said, "No." Then Allah said, 'That is My Blessing which I grant to whomsoever I will.'


I think if we get into details of this, it would be off-topic. But I have already posted details, in another thread, see my post 18 here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/151761-muslims-what-benefit-jesus-2.html
Hope to hear where Quran says that "Another messengers will be sent again"
I have already posted clear verses, saying this.

But here are some more signs:

Quran alluded to coming of Baha'u'llah and the Interpretation of Quran:

"a Messenger from God, reciting pages purified, therein true Books." 98:2-3
al-Baiyinah 98:3

' رَسُولٌ مِّنَ اللَّهِ يَتْلُو صُحُفًا مُّطَهَّرَةً فِيهَا كُتُبٌ قَيِّمَةٌ'

Noticing, the Word here is 'Books'. Plural of Book (كُتُبٌ)
To Prophet Muhammad God revealed only One Book. The Holy Quran. So this verse is not talking about Muhammad.
To Baha'u'llah many Books were revealed. Baha'u'llah revealed them in pages (Sohof)


And As Quran said, the interpretation of Quran was to come:

"Now we have brought them a Book explaining it in knowledge, a guidance and a mercy to a people who believe. Do they wait now for aught but its interpretation?− on the day when its interpretation shall come, those who forgot it before will say, ‘There did come to us the apostles of our Lord in truth, have we intercessors to intercede for us? …"(7:53)

هَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا تَأْوِيلَهُ يَوْمَ يَأْتِي تَأْوِيلُهُ يَقُولُ الَّذِينَ نَسُوهُ مِن قَبْلُ قَدْ جَاءَتْ رُسُلُ رَبِّنَا بِالْحَقِّ فَهَل لَّنَا مِن شُفَعَاءَ فَيَشْفَعُوا لَنَا أَوْ نُرَدُّ فَنَعْمَلَ غَيْرَ الَّذِي كُنَّا نَعْمَلُ قَدْ خَسِرُوا أَنفُسَهُمْ وَضَلَّ عَنْهُم مَّا كَانُوا يَفْتَرُونَ


This Prophecy is Fulfilled in the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, as He revealed many Tablets and Books in which the interpretation of Quran came. Specifically Book of Iqan (Certitude) can be seen as the fulfillment:

The Kitáb-i-Íqán
well, going throw the Arabic language rules won't lead to solve the conflict, there are hadiths that said the prophet is the last one, one of therm "if there a prophet me it would be Omar" the word if in arabic is used to give the impssible assumptions another one, he said to Ali, " do you accept to be to me like Harun to moses but there's no prophet after me"
this cuts your interpretations
What that Hadith is refering to is 'imidiate successorship' after Muhammad. It has Nothing has to do with Finality of Revelation.

In addition to that Hadith, I also give another view on this as well:

Muhammad affirmed: "My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example: A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marvelled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets."

What the Prophet is saying here is that, there was a civilization of humanity, that was created starting with Adam, and ended with Muhammad.
Muhammad was the last brick of that building.
But we have to ask ourselves:
Is there a limit in creation of God? So, if He created a Building, now He cannot create a City around it?

In our view, there is no limit in His creation.

“Are We wearied out with the first creation? Yet are they in doubt with regard to a new creation!” Quran 50:15

:facepalm: how from the above you reach that conclusion !
Can you conclude anything else other than what I did?
 
Last edited:

dynavert2012

Active Member
It seems you missed my previous reply.



And there are plenty of Quran verses talk about future messengers and revelations.
See some of them I posted in my previous post.

i answered that on the other post

That you quote this verse to say the Revelation of Quran is Final, is very similar to what the People of the Book do.
For example they quote the verse of Bible that Jesus said:
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

there's a main difference in the comparison between Muslims vision on the bible and Baha'i vision on the quran, if a Christian came by that verse saying Jesus is the last, simply i can say that verse is corrupted as i believe the book is corrupted, you can't do the same for Quran as you don't believe that he's a corrupted book.
anyway, i do believe in John 14:6, yes nobody could reach the god except through jesus and to believe in him, i just disagree with the word father
But As we look at the topic of the completion of religion in the light of the whole Qur'an, we find that religion is described as being completed, in quite a few verses (in addition to verse 5:3).

For instance, we find that God's favor was completed at the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph:

And thus will your Lord choose you and teach you the interpretation of sayings and make His favor complete to you and to the children of Jacob, as He made it complete before to your fathers, Abraham and Isaac; surely your Lord is knowing, wise.
- Qur'an 12:6

We also find that God completed His favor through Moses:

Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favor) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
- Qur'an 6:154

According to the Qur'an, the completion of the favor is also conditional upon the individual's success in obeying and fearing God:

And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turn your face towards it, so that people shall have no accusation against you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on you and that you may walk on the right course.
- Qur'an 2:150

Some argue however, that while "completion" of the favor may not be unique to Muslims, "perfection" of the religion is.

here you are mixing things, i don't use the verse 5:3 for the term completing the religion, i use it for the term "and have approved for you Islam as religion"
nothing in the scriptures before quran say that god approved Christianity or Judaism for those people, this is a unique term, and so if Allah approved Islam for us, he will never invent another religion that contradicted with Islam
Therefore As it is revealed in Quran, each Age has its Book:

"Apostles truly have we already sent before thee, and wives and offspring have we given them. Yet no apostle had come with miracles unless by the leave of God. To each age its Book." ar-Ra`d 13:38

According to this verse Quran was a Book for its own Age, and is not the last Book.

how do you define the own age of the quran?
Now we have to ask ourselves without denying the Reality:
Did the Worldwide Community of Muslims kept its unity and walked according to the Quran?


“Lo! Ye are they, who are called to expend for the Cause of God: and some of you are niggards (stingy) but whoso is niggardly shall be niggard only to his own loss, for God is the rich and ye are the poor: and if ye turn back, he will change you for another people, and they shall not be your like

Muhammad 47:38

most of Muslims, specially those who was born as Muslims are not following the essence of Islam just the rituals, and so yeah we are "Arabs" are going to be replaced by whom? by Persians? i don't think so, it's by the western muslims who reverted to islam although all of that war against Islam in the media, they accepted it although of the suffering, struggling there, but they bear it, and they are the future of Islam, the verse don't mean to initiate a new religion,
and the flag already moved from arabs to other Muslims, the best example are the turks, before the collapse of the ottmanic caliphate, turks were the leaders of Muslism
Muhammad was asked who were the people He referred to as “another people”, who were to replace the Arabs? One of His famous followers, Salman Farsi, a Persian, was sitting near Him. Muhammad patted the legs of Salman and said: “He and his people” and He continued: “By the True One, in Whose hands is My life, if the Faith of God should be suspended in the Pleiades, surely men from Persia shall reach it.” (This tradition is accepted by Sunnis and Shiites and is included by Nasafi in his book, Vol 4, page 169, as well as by Muhammad Farid Vajdi, in his book, third edition, page 676)

Also Here:

The Life of Imam Abu Hanifah


Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah were from Persia, fulfilling the above prophecy!

what i know is authentic according to Sunni, this part of Hadith"if the Faith of God should be suspended in the Pleiades, surely men from Persia shall reach it and the occasion of the hadith was at the revealtion of the verse "And [to] others of them who have not yet joined them" 62:3 not the verse you mentioned, you can efer to sahih bukhari and Muslim in that
but you claimed at first you are rejecting hadiths and then you misue them to prove your religion !!

Do you know how long it took for Christianity to be spread around the earth?

don't know, you can tell me:)
Moreover, historically Islam progressed using sword and wars, where the matter of fact is, this was not ordered by God or His messengers, so it diviated from its origin.
this will open a great debates, let's put this aside
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'm curious about one thing... Of those who have answered already, and for those who answer from here on out, do any of you believe that there was a time when there were living prophets? I mean true prophets, men called by God to deliver a message to large groups of people. People like Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah. If you believe they were all frauds, I can understand why you would believe the same thing about a prophet today; that would make perfect sense. But if you believe they were actually true prophets, why would you deny that God could and probably would call a prophet in this day and age? After all, He is supposedly the same today as He was yesterday. Do we no longer need direction from Him? Does He not love us as much as He loved the people of the Old Testament? Has He lost His ability to communicate to us?

I'm not sure that you can separate this from the issue of miracles: these days, we don't have rivers turning to blood, the Sun standing still in the sky, or masses of dead coming back to life and talking to the living either. Apparently, something's changed from Biblical times. If God has decided to cut out the overt, flamboyant miracles, who's to say he hasn't decided to cut out the prophecy, too?

Even if there are modern-day prophets, it does seem that God doesn't behave the way he used to.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
there's a main difference in the comparison between Muslims vision on the bible and Baha'i vision on the quran, if a Christian came by that verse saying Jesus is the last, simply i can say that verse is corrupted as i believe the book is corrupted, you can't do the same for Quran as you don't believe that he's a corrupted book.
anyway, i do believe in John 14:6, yes nobody could reach the god except through jesus and to believe in him, i just disagree with the word father
Which Baha'i Scriptures refutes the belief that the Text of Injils and Torah that exist today is corrupted. As I also showed in detail in this thread with a link to another, such an idea does not exist in Quran, and Muhammad did not teach such a thing.
Other than minor inacuracies, those Holy Books are legitimate to be used and refered to as Truth.






here you are mixing things, i don't use the verse 5:3 for the term completing the religion, i use it for the term "and have approved for you Islam as religion"
It is true that you didn't uses verse 5:3 for finality of revelation, but most Muslims do.


nothing in the scriptures before quran say that god approved Christianity or Judaism for those people, this is a unique term, and so if Allah approved Islam for us, he will never invent another religion that contradicted with Islam
I have already responded regarding the meaning of the Term 'Islam' in my previous post.



how do you define the own age of the quran?
Quran defines its own 'Term' as 1000 years. This is also confirmed in various Hadithes.



most of Muslims, specially those who was born as Muslims are not following the essence of Islam just the rituals, and so yeah we are "Arabs" are going to be replaced by whom? by Persians? i don't think so, it's by the western muslims who reverted to islam although all of that war against Islam in the media, they accepted it although of the suffering, struggling there, but they bear it, and they are the future of Islam, the verse don't mean to initiate a new religion,
and the flag already moved from arabs to other Muslims, the best example are the turks, before the collapse of the ottmanic caliphate, turks were the leaders of Muslism
Quran defines in many other cases, what it means by 'Replacing a People' with another People. There are many examples in Quran that God replaced a People, by sending a Messenger to another people and 'Chose' them. This is also confirmed in Sahih Hadithes.
Regarding replacing ' by the western muslims ' , this seems to be an invented Tafseer, as there is no verse of Quran or Authentic Hadith that says Arabs are replaced by the western muslims.


what i know is authentic according to Sunni, this part of Hadith"if the Faith of God should be suspended in the Pleiades, surely men from Persia shall reach it and the occasion of the hadith was at the revealtion of the verse "And [to] others of them who have not yet joined them" 62:3 not the verse you mentioned, you can efer to sahih bukhari and Muslim in that
Can you quote an Authentic Hadith that the Hadith regarding 'Persians' are related to verse 62:3?

but you claimed at first you are rejecting hadiths and then you misue them to prove your religion !!
I never claimed such a thing my friend. You must have misread my quote or Bruce.
Baha'is accept all the Muslim Authentic Hadithes.


don't know, you can tell me:)
It took 300 years, for Christianity to spread arround the earth.
Do you know how long it took for Baha'i Faith to be spread arround the earth? Answer is about 100 years (maybe less)




this will open a great debates, let's put this aside
OK, but I think it is not very debatable that the Muslims invaded many parts of the World.
From Wikipidia:

The Muslim conquest of Persia, also known as the Arab conquest of Iran[1] led to the end of the Sasanian Empire in 651 and the eventual decline of the Zoroastrian religion in Iran. Arabs first attacked the Sassanid territory in 633, when general Khalid ibn Walid invaded Mesopotamia (what is now Iraq), which was the political and economic center of the Sassanid state.[2]

Muslim conquest of Persia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, what might be debatable, is if these invasions were approved by Teachings of Quran. I believe it was not. But we can leave that asside.
 
Last edited:

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member


Baha'is accept all authentic Muslim hadiths.

Misleading, I'm afraid, because even the Muslims themselves can't agree on which ones are or aren't valid!

This is why I said we Baha'is accept only those (few) directly quoted in our own scriptures.

It took 300 years, for Christianity to spread arround the earth.

Though not all the earth given that some of it was still unknown to those in the Eastern Hemisphere.

The "known world" (from a Eurasian viewpoint), perhaps.

Peace, :)

Bruce
 
Last edited:

gnostic

The Lost One
I am the prophet, for I had foretold the coming of Homer:

"Behold, a man would cause mayhem and chaos in the US of A, and you will know him for he shall drink cheap beers and eat donuts! Hail, Mary!" :bow:

Doh!
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
“By the True One, in Whose hands is My life, if the Faith of God should be suspended in the Pleiades, surely men from Persia shall reach it.”

Better be careful, or you'll draw me back into this conversttion! :-S

(Ignoring for the nonce the fact that the Pleadies <aka the "Seven Sisters," one being considered invisible> consists of a group of stars not actually near each other save when viewed from Earth,)

FWIW the Japanese word for the Pleadies is "Subaru," which is why these cars display the six-star logo they do.

And the Persian word for the Pleadies is "Nahid," which just happens to be my wife's name! :) :) :)

Small world.

Bruce
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Misleading, I'm afraid, because even the Muslims themselves can't agree on which ones are or aren't valid!

This is why I said we Baha'is accept only those (few) directly quoted in our own scriptures.


I would say it this way:
Baha'is must accept all Hadithes (which are many) that are confirmed in Baha'i Scriptures ( That included Traditions that the Bab refered to, and probably even Kazim and Ahmad Ahsaee)

As regards to the rest of Hadithes that are not quoted in Baha'i Texts explicitly, we do not neccessarily declare them to be false. If they are in agreement with Holy Texts, we can say there is Truth in them, though there still might be some inaccuracies in them.


Though not all the earth given that some of it was still unknown to those in the Eastern Hemisphere.

The "known world" (from a Eurasian viewpoint), perhaps.

Peace, :)

Bruce

I found this from Abdulbaha:

"See how the light of Christ's shining star took three hundred years to shed its rays on the world, whereas the light of BAHA'O'LLAH has permeated all regions in less than half a century. His cause has been spread in every country and the mention of BAHA'O'LLAH made in every tongue. In nearly every country there is an assembly of friends from Teheran to Paris, to San Francisco, to Japan. This is a different age and light is spreading with great rapidity."

Abdul Baha on Divine Philosophy, file 05
 
Last edited:
Top