Why Islam, Christianity and modern Judaism are all apostate religious institutions.

[Simplelogic]

I was gonna use Jeremiah 31:31-33, but it's not the Torah, so like, it doesn't matter...

We still haven't heard from Simplelogic on if God can add to His work, or not. Such a simple question, so slippery a slope....

Might want to read Jer 31 again. It actually makes the opposite point:

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; 32not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, saith the LORD. 33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law (lit Torah) in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people; 34and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: ‘Know the LORD’; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more. Jer 31: 31-34

So what is the difference in Jeremiah's "new covenant"? God says He will write it on our hearts. Originally God commanded us to write it on our own hearts and we failed to do so. Notice how the whole point to this "new covenant" is that the Torah (law of Moses) is going to be written on our hearts!! Does this mean new laws are being created??? NO!

Also. Notice verse 34. God says we will no long teach each other saying "know God", because we will know Him. This is still a future prophecy which hasn't happened yet.

 

[Simplelogic]

1. "logical to assume"? So you are adding. OK.
3. You assume that "clean beast" has something to do with kosher laws and that the sacrifice in that verse had anything to do with eating. In fact, Noah is told in 9:2-5 that he can eat ANY animal just not the blood so there is no notion of the kosher laws there.
4. being in a covenant with a woman means he understood his society's laws of relationships -- not any law from God.

Torah before Sinai:

-Joseph demonstrated that he knew and obeyed the Torah more than two hundred years before it was given to Moses:

Bere**** (Genesis) 39:7-9 And after a while his master's wife took notice of Joseph and said, "Come to bed with me!" But he refused. "With me in charge," he told her, "my master does not concern himself with anything in the house; everything he owns he has entrusted to my care. No one is greater in this house than I am. My master has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God?"

-Passover was clearly given before Sinai

-Sabbath was commanded before Sinai

-More than two hundred years before the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai, Judah was obeying a part of that Torah, notice:

Bere**** (Genesis) 38:6-10 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in HaShem's sight; so HaShem put him to death. ThenJudah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in HaShem's sight; so he put him to death also.

-How did Judah know it was Onan's duty to lie with his brother's wife to produce offspring? Who taught him this portion of the Torah? Notice the words that the Torah uses to describe this command:

Devarim (Deuteronomy) 25:5-6 If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.

So, in a couple of hundred years, from Judah's time, the Torah will use Judah's word duty to describe what Judah asked Onan to do.

Notice also, in Bere**** (Genesis) 38:6-10, that what Onan did was wicked in the HaShem's sight, so He killed Onan. This would not be very fair if Onan did not already know that it was wicked for him to do such a thing. Thus we see that HaShem had revealed His Torah to Judah and to Onan more than two hundred years before the Torah was revealed to Moses.

-Isaac knew the Torah that was given to Moses more than two hundred years before Moses. We see this in his command to his son Jacob:

Bere**** (Genesis) 28:1 So Isaac called for Jacob and blessed him and commanded him: "Do not marry a Canaanite woman.


-Abraham was keeping the whole Torah according to your Rabbi's hundreds of years before Sinai!!

Bere**** (Genesis) 26:2-6 HaShem appeared to Isaac and said, "Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land where I tell you to live. Stay in this land for a while, and I will be with you and will bless you. For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham. I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, Because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws." So Isaac stayed in Gerar.

More than two hundred years before Sinai, Abraham is obeying all of HaShem's requirements, commands, decrees and laws. This is the first time we see mitzvot being obeyed when it is not apparent when HaShem revealed His mitzvot. We do not know whether He made a special revelation to Abraham, or whether Abraham was taught by someone else. The Talmud also noticed that Abrahamkept the whole Torah:

Yoma 28b Rab said: Our father Abraham kept the whole Torah, as it is said: Because that Abraham hearkened to My voice [kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws].[5] R. Shimi b. Hiyya said to Rab: Say, perhaps, that this refers to the seven laws?[6] — Surely there was also that of circumcision![7] Then say that it refers to the seven laws and circumcision[and not to the whole Torah]? — If that were so, why does Scripture say: ‘My commandments and My laws’?

Raba or R. Ashi said: Abraham, our father, kept even the law concerning the ‘erub of the dishes,’[8] as it is said: ‘My Torahs’:[9] one being the written Torah, the other the oral Torah.[10]

 

[Simplelogic]

The Verse is about the animals to rescue, not to eat. You don't save animals by eating them, crazy **** I know.
Prior to Berei**** 9 Humans weren't allowed to eat any meat. So why should Berei**** 7 go into detail which animals are fair to eat? Berei**** 9 and beyond might be a place to check for references.

Ah but you do, of course.
Also since when are poison ivy or other poisonous plants herbs?

After the flood, Noah demonstrated knowledge of Torah, and obedience to it:

Bere**** (Genesis) 8:18-21 So Noah came out, together with his sons and his wife and his sons' wives. All the animals and all the creatures that move along the ground and all the birds--everything that moves on the earth--came out of the ark, one kind after another. Then Noah built an altar to HaShem and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. HaShem smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

 

[Simplelogic]

Torah before Sinai:

-Joseph demonstrated that he knew and obeyed the Torah commands on marriage more than two hundred years before it was given to Moses:

Bere**** (Genesis) 39:7-9 And after a while his master's wife took notice of Joseph and said, "Come to bed with me!" But he refused. "With me in charge," he told her, "my master does not concern himself with anything in the house; everything he owns he has entrusted to my care. No one is greater in this house than I am. My master has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God?"

-Passover was clearly given before Sinai

-Sabbath was commanded before Sinai

-More than two hundred years before the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai, Judah was obeying a part of that Torah, notice:

Bere**** (Genesis) 38:6-10 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in HaShem's sight; so HaShem put him to death. ThenJudah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in HaShem's sight; so he put him to death also.

-How did Judah know it was Onan's duty to lie with his brother's wife to produce offspring? Who taught him this portion of the Torah? Notice the words that the Torah uses to describe this command:

Devarim (Deuteronomy) 25:5-6 If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.

So, in a couple of hundred years, from Judah's time, the Torah will use Judah's word duty to describe what Judah asked Onan to do.

Notice also, in Bere**** (Genesis) 38:6-10, that what Onan did was wicked in the HaShem's sight, so He killed Onan. This would not be very fair if Onan did not already know that it was wicked for him to do such a thing. Thus we see that HaShem had revealed His Torah to Judah and to Onan more than two hundred years before the Torah was revealed to Moses.

-Isaac knew the Torah that was given to Moses more than two hundred years before Moses. We see this in his command to his son Jacob:

Bere**** (Genesis) 28:1 So Isaac called for Jacob and blessed him and commanded him: "Do not marry a Canaanite woman.


-Abraham was keeping the whole Torah according to your Rabbi's hundreds of years before Sinai!!

Bere**** (Genesis) 26:2-6 HaShem appeared to Isaac and said, "Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land where I tell you to live. Stay in this land for a while, and I will be with you and will bless you. For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham. I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, Because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws." So Isaac stayed in Gerar.

More than two hundred years before Sinai, Abraham is obeying all of HaShem's requirements, commands, decrees and laws. This is the first time we see mitzvot being obeyed when it is not apparent when HaShem revealed His mitzvot. We do not know whether He made a special revelation to Abraham, or whether Abraham was taught by someone else. The Talmud also noticed that Abrahamkept the whole Torah:

Yoma 28b Rab said: Our father Abraham kept the whole Torah, as it is said: Because that Abraham hearkened to My voice [kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws].[5] R. Shimi b. Hiyya said to Rab: Say, perhaps, that this refers to the seven laws?[6] — Surely there was also that of circumcision![7] Then say that it refers to the seven laws and circumcision[and not to the whole Torah]? — If that were so, why does Scripture say: ‘My commandments and My laws’?

Raba or R. Ashi said: Abraham, our father, kept even the law concerning the ‘erub of the dishes,’[8] as it is said: ‘My Torahs’:[9] one being the written Torah, the other the oral Torah.[10]

 

[Flankerl]

Quoting from the website of a Christian/Messianic.

How adorable.

 

[Simplelogic]

Quoting from the website of a Christian/Messianic.

How adorable.

hahahaha….thats your rebuttal??? Nice.

 

[Simplelogic]

Quoting from the website of a Christian/Messianic.

How adorable.

You might want to ask your Rabbi why Abraham served the messengers a cheeseburger while your at it. Epic fail.

 

[Flankerl]

hahahaha….thats your rebuttal??? Nice.

If you don't wanna be associated with Christians don't use their Priests for your argument my little Christian.


Sometimes I wonder if we would have been better off if the Romans would have kept Christianity in check.

You might want to ask your Rabbi why Abraham served the messengers a cheeseburger while your at it. Epic fail.

Now that's a butthurt.

 

[Simplelogic]

If you don't wanna be associated with Christians don't use their Priests for your argument my little Christian.


Sometimes I wonder if we would have been better off if the Romans would have kept Christianity in check.

Now that's a butthurt.

You are fighting for your institutional religion which is obviously bogus. You get made at me for quoting from a Messianic or Christian website but why? Can't Christian's or Messianic's be right in some cases? Or does all truth come from Rabbinic Judaism? I believe truth can come from many avenues. Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way.

 

[rosends]

Torah before Sinai:

-Joseph demonstrated that he knew and obeyed the Torah more than two hundred years before it was given to Moses:

Bere**** (Genesis) 39:7-9 And after a while his master's wife took notice of Joseph and said, "Come to bed with me!" But he refused. "With me in charge," he told her, "my master does not concern himself with anything in the house; everything he owns he has entrusted to my care. No one is greater in this house than I am. My master has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God?"

Great. This has nothing to do with the claims you made. Responding with irrelevant examples does nothing to prove your point.

-Passover was clearly given before Sinai

Um...so? The passover laws were given right before the Exodus. This is not what you claimed.

-Sabbath was commanded before Sinai

where?

-More than two hundred years before the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai, Judah was obeying a part of that Torah, notice:

Great. Irrelevant. This isn't what you claimed. Why are you citing other events instead of substantiating your claims?

-Isaac knew the Torah that was given to Moses more than two hundred years before Moses. We see this in his command to his son Jacob:

Bere**** (Genesis) 28:1 So Isaac called for Jacob and blessed him and commanded him: "Do not marry a Canaanite woman.

Not only irrelevant but inaccurate. No where is this a commandment from God to Isaac. In fact, a few verses later, Esau, hearing the same instructions, saw that "the daughters of Canaan were evil in the eyes of Isaac, his father." Not in the eyes of God, just his dad.

HaShem appeared to Isaac and said, "Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land where I tell you to live. Stay in this land for a while, and I will be with you and will bless you. For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham. I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, Because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws." So Isaac stayed in Gerar.

So your inference is because Abraham followed everything commanded to him, that he followed everything in the Torah? That's an inference unsupported by facts. Do we see Abraham take a palm branch and a particular fruit in accordance with Lev 23:40? No. He certainly didn't teach his children to follow the laws (his grandson married sisters which is explicitly prohibited). When you quote the talmud to support your point you are handing over agency to the rabbis you protest against. So none of this textually substantiates your claims.[/quote]

 

[Simplelogic]

So far I have received the standard rebuttals from the three Abrahamic "faiths".

Muslims- Claiming that Muhammad somehow has the right to change the Torah commands. Don't really explain how though.

Christians- Claiming that Jesus' sacrificed abolished the Law. Only they won't come out and say it. They like to say he "fulfilled" the law instead.

Rabbinic Judaism- So far has come out the strongest with their typical blind defense of Rabbinic traditions which have no basis in the law of Moses.

Typical responses from indoctrinated zombies who can only see the errors of other faiths and never their own. Muslims and Jews are ganging up on Christians. Christians and Jews are gaining up on Muslims. Yet they are all guilty of the same thing yet none of them can see it about their own faith. How sad.

 

[rosends]

After the flood, Noah demonstrated knowledge of Torah, and obedience to it:

Bere**** (Genesis) 8:18-21 So Noah came out, together with his sons and his wife and his sons' wives. All the animals and all the creatures that move along the ground and all the birds--everything that moves on the earth--came out of the ark, one kind after another. Then Noah built an altar to HaShem and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. HaShem smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

your claim was that he knew laws of kosher, not of animals fit for sacrifice. You have added.

 

[rosends]

You might want to ask your Rabbi why Abraham served the messengers a cheeseburger while your at it. Epic fail.

if he did textually, then you can't claim he followed all the laws.

 

[Simplelogic]

Great. This has nothing to do with the claims you made. Responding with irrelevant examples does nothing to prove your point.

Um...so? The passover laws were given right before the Exodus. This is not what you claimed.

where?

Great. Irrelevant. This isn't what you claimed. Why are you citing other events instead of substantiating your claims?


Not only irrelevant but inaccurate. No where is this a commandment from God to Isaac. In fact, a few verses later, Esau, hearing the same instructions, saw that "the daughters of Canaan were evil in the eyes of Isaac, his father." Not in the eyes of God, just his dad.

So your inference is because Abraham followed everything commanded to him, that he followed everything in the Torah? That's an inference unsupported by facts. Do we see Abraham take a palm branch and a particular fruit in accordance with Lev 23:40? No. He certainly didn't teach his children to follow the laws (his grandson married sisters which is explicitly prohibited). When you quote the talmud to support your point you are handing over agency to the rabbis you protest against. So none of this textually substantiates your claims.

[/QUOTE]
Your acting like Abraham wasn't following a command when it comes to marriage. Yet it is clear that the command for marriage was already in existence before the Torah. And you also know that God said that Abraham kept "all of His laws, decrees, statutes etc…".

 

[Simplelogic]

if he did textually, then you can't claim he followed all the laws.

Or just maybe your Rabbi's are wrong and there is no Torah prohibition against mixing milk with meat.

Circular logic once again.

 

[rosends]

So far I have received the standard rebuttals from the three Abrahamic "faiths".

Muslims- Claiming that Muhammad somehow has the right to change the Torah commands. Don't really explain how though.

Christians- Claiming that Jesus' sacrificed abolished the Law. Only they won't come out and say it. They like to say he "fulfilled" the law instead.

Rabbinic Judaism- So far has come out the strongest with their typical blind defense of Rabbinic traditions which have no basis in the law of Moses.

Typical responses from indoctrinated zombies who can only see the errors of other faiths and never their own. Muslims and Jews are ganging up on Christians. Christians and Jews are gaining up on Muslims. Yet they are all guilty of the same thing yet none of them can see it about their own faith. How sad.

Yet it is clear that the command for marriage was already in existence before the Torah. And you also know that God said that Abraham kept "all of His laws, decrees, statutes etc…".[/QUOTE]
It is clear? You mean you are assuming, or "adding" to what the text says. And you know that the text only says that Abraham says the laws that were given to him.

 

[Flankerl]

You are fighting for your institutional religion which is obviously bogus. You get made at me for quoting from a Messianic or Christian website but why? Can't Christian's or Messianic's be right in some cases? Or does all truth come from Rabbinic Judaism? I believe truth can come from many avenues. Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way.

Aww don't be sad, it's okay to be Christian.
Also I am not mad for you quoting your Christian teachers. That's perfectly okay but completely unimportant to me.

Rabbinic Judaism- So far has come out the strongest with their typical blind defense of Rabbinic traditions which have no basis in the law of Moses.

"I claim to be in possession of the true Judaism which wasn't falsified by the evil false Jews, why don't they like me?"

Muslims and Jews are ganging up on Christians. Christians and Jews are gaining up on Muslims.

Source?

Yet they are all guilty of the same thing yet none of them can see it about their own faith. How sad.

We are just glad that you got it all figured out.

 

[rosends]

Or just maybe your Rabbi's are wrong and there is no Torah prohibition against mixing milk with meat.

Circular logic once again.

so that's your reasoning? Because the text doesn't explicitly say "don't eat a cheeseburger" it is acceptable, but even though the text doesn't say "Abe was given laws of marriage" you assume he was? That's crazy selective of you.

 

[Simplelogic]

Yet it is clear that the command for marriage was already in existence before the Torah. And you also know that God said that Abraham kept "all of His laws, decrees, statutes etc…".

It is clear? You mean you are assuming, or "adding" to what the text says. And you know that the text only says that Abraham says the laws that were given to him.[/QUOTE]
There is no prohibition against making logical assumptions about the text. The prohibition is against adding or taking away commandments which is what your Rabbi's are doing.

 

[rosends]

Rabbinic Judaism- So far has come out the strongest with their typical blind defense of Rabbinic traditions which have no basis in the law of Moses.
.

Ironic since you were the one who quoted the talmud to prove your point.