Why it's easier to be a creationist than an atheist

[Jumi]

Besides, I believe in evolution... and I'm entirely open to the possibility that God brought the material world into existence through a big bang... not sure what your point is!

Creationism, at least the usual variety of it, denies evolution having happened. Usually when theists believe God had to do with evolution they call it theistic evolution. Of course there's the in-between of intelligent design...

 

[Spiderman]

Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If God only wants us to live in the afterlife, why do we have a forelife at all?


No, you wrote "my ability to use logic and reason". You didn't say they were your own personal form of logic and reason. In either case, you're selling your capacity to reason drastically short.


Then you aren't using logic and reason.


Why?

That is your opinion.

I have a different opinion.

to believe that all of these scientific mechanisms were in place, to create all the resources and creatures and sun, without the help of a creator, seems completely unreasonable to me.... I'm sorry I'm this way... but at this time am unable to see it any differently

 

[Spiderman]

Creationism, at least the usual variety of it, denies evolution having happened. Usually when theists believe God had to do with evolution they call it theistic evolution.

I believe there is evidence for theistic evolution

 

[Spiderman]

Don't believe what's easy and comfortable. Believe what the evidence suggests.
Why? Reality isn't intuitive. God plays dice.
Before you dismiss a theory, at least take the trouble to understand it and the evidence supporting it.
A Creator still doesn't explain the mechanism involved -- which is all science deals with.
'Goddidit' may be comforting, but it explains nothing, and is entirely without evidence.
Why do you say that, when everything points to just this scenario? Are you argruing from incredulity, and from ignorance of the explanations offered by physics?
All well and good, but what mechanisms were involved, and, given these natural mechanisms, why would a God be necessary?

I have read about many things like this and watched documentaries about them

Miracle of the Sun - Wikipedia

God has many ways of providing evidence. People choose to reject it.

 

[Jumi]

I believe there is evidence for theistic evolution

Then you're not a creationist in the sense people usually use the word... where God just zaps readymade humans from mud, bone or nothing.

I'm half-way to theistic evolution. I believe the scientific theory is valid, but I think our awareness has potential to connect to God.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

That is your opinion.

I have a different opinion.

to believe that all of these scientific mechanisms were in place, to create all the resources and creatures and sun, without the help of a creator, seems completely unreasonable to me.... I'm sorry I'm this way... but at this time am unable to see it any differently

You're selling yourself too short. Why is it so easy to believe an intelligent, supernatural agency who appeared from nothing and for no reason decided to make life from nothing and for no reason and forced that life to suffer for nothing and for no reason?

 

[HonestJoe]

To me, I'm unable to believe that things can just materialize out of nothing, and that energy can come out of nowhere that creates a big bang

That’s OK because it isn’t what any of the versions of Big Bang theory claims.

Now, where do you believe the creator came from? If your position is that the creator is infinite and eternal, you’re opening the possibility of there being a non-sentient energy which is infinite and eternal, one which could have triggered the Big Bang.

And that Creator wants us to suffer and die. this Earth is not our home

You just made that up. You’ve absolutely zero evidence to base it on. If you want a serious factual discussion, you should stop doing that.

 

[Spiderman]

Please stop saying something came from nothing, no scientist ever, said that, Creationists...say something comes from nothing.

The exact same amount of matter and energy that existed before the big bang, continues to exist today. Read the laws of thermodynamics. You can deduce that matter and energy which are interchangeable have always existed and were never just created out of nothing like the creationists say what happened.

creationists like me don't believe something came from nothing... we believe an intelligent spirit was working with scientific mechanisms to bring it about... do you believe the material World always existed?

If Not, it had to be put together

 

[Revoltingest]

creationists like me don't believe something came from nothing... we believe an intelligent spirit was working with scientific mechanisms to bring it about... do you believe the material World always existed?

If Not, it had to be put together

I caution against making pronouncements that <something> had to have happened
when it can't be observed or even be deduced. Was there a beginning or no beginning?
Was the material world created or an uncontrolled event? How many gods are there?
Without verifiable answers, tis best to leave them as open questions.

 

[Spiderman]

That’s OK because it isn’t what any of the versions of Big Bang theory claims.

Now, where do you believe the creator came from? If your position is that the creator is infinite and eternal, you’re opening the possibility of there being a non-sentient energy which is infinite and eternal, one which could have triggered the Big Bang.

You just made that up. You’ve absolutely zero evidence to base it on. If you want a serious factual discussion, you should stop doing that.

I'm open to two possibilities, maybe the Creator is the force behind scientific mechanisms that led to a big bang which indirectly resulted in all these creatures

I sort of believe God is an eternal being, but that is a total mystery to me, but it's easier for me to believe that than to believe a bunch of forces and materials were created through scientific mechanisms that were not instituted by a higher power

 

[HonestJoe]

I sort of believe God is an eternal being, but that is a total mystery to me, but it's easier for me to believe that than to believe a bunch of forces and materials were created through scientific mechanisms that were not instituted by a higher power

You opened the thread purporting to present evidence for an intelligent creator but that evidence fell apart under scrutiny.

Your inability to believe is irrelevant to the facts. If you’re acknowledging that you’re incapable of believing otherwise because it’s “too difficult” for you, you’re in no position to assert what is or isn’t true. That’d be like a blind man telling you what colour your car really is.

 

[Polymath257]

I can't speak for everyone.
If you are unable to be a theist, that's fine, I'm not able to be an atheist... it's virtually impossible for me to do that, because it goes against my ability to reason and use logic.

Why does gold, silver, and diamonds exist? How does a big bang create these treasures? That big bang was creative? Silver, gold, diamonds, and treasures came into existence out of nothing for no reason, at random? Or, it was created?

First, the Big Bang didn't create these. The carbon in diamonds was mostly produced in the cores of stars. Gold and Silver were mostly produced in the late stages of supernovas or hypernovas, where nuclear reactions happen.

The big bang created these pretty birds out of nothing, gave them wings and hollow bones so they can fly
View attachment 21664View attachment 21665 View attachment 21666
Who's a pretty bird?

No, these birds came much, much later. The BB happened about 13.7 billion years ago. Birds first appeared about 140 million years ago.

The Big Bang gave us a round world. How did it get round?

Once again, the Earth didn't form until about 9 billion years after the BB. Gravity is why most large things in the universe are round.

And put the sun in the right place, so that we could all survive.

You have it backwards. The *earth* is in the right place.

The Big Bang gave us plants, herbs, fruits, and vegetables out of nothing.

The Big Bang gave us water and eventually oil.

Imagine a world without oil.

Again, all of these are much, much later. The Earth didn't form until around 4.5 billion years ago--the universe is about 13.7 billion years old.

Oil is a product of decay of living things. It formed *after* living things developed.

chimp-like creatures that evolved from single cell organisms, that came into existence on a round planet, that came into existence out of.... not a damn thing.

The Earth formed about the same time as the sun and the rest of our solar system. They all formed from a large cloud of gas and dust, which collapsed because of gravity. We see the same process happening today in certain nebula. Look up the EGGs of the Orion Nebula.

None of this is possible without the Big Bang giving us the Sun... and in the right place of course...

The Earth orbits the sun, not the other way around. The sun is much, much, much larger than the earth.

The Big Bang has been good to us!

Thoughts?
( okay, the thread was supposed to reek of ignorance and be silly.. it was to get you educated folks excited and load your guns .... I'm just saying it's easier to believe that a creator, some higher power working with the mechanisms of science, created it.... it's a lot more difficult to discover a scientific explanation.)

yep. Sometimes you have to think in order to find truth.

 

[Cacotopia]

Well I guess you didn't bother looking up the laws of thermodynamics. Sigh

The first law, also known as Law of Conservation of Energy, states that energy cannot be created or destroyed in an isolated system. The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of any isolated system always increases.The third law of thermodynamics is sometimes stated as follows, regarding the properties of systems in equilibrium at absolute zero temperature: The entropy of a perfect crystal at absolute zero is exactly equal to zero. The zeroth law of thermodynamics states that if two thermodynamic systems are each in thermal equilibrium with a third, then they are in thermal equilibrium with each other. Accordingly, thermal equilibrium between systems is a transitive relation.

1st Law. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The mass of these three particles is less than the mass of a neutron, so they each get some energy as well. So energy and matter are really the same thing. Completely interchangeable. And finally, although energy and mass are related through special relativity, mass and space are related through general relativity. Meaning matter and energy are two sides to the same coin, and by following the 1st law of thermodynamics the matter that is present here and now in the universe is the same amount of matter that has always existed. The universe as we perceive it had a beginning, the matter and energy that comprises this universe does not.

 

[Cacotopia]

That is your opinion.

I have a different opinion.

to believe that all of these scientific mechanisms were in place, to create all the resources and creatures and sun, without the help of a creator, seems completely unreasonable to me.... I'm sorry I'm this way... but at this time am unable to see it any differently

Can't or won't there is a rather larger difference here.

 

[sealchan]

I can't speak for everyone.
If you are unable to be a theist, that's fine, I'm not able to be an atheist... it's virtually impossible for me to do that, because it goes against my ability to reason and use logic.

Why does gold, silver, and diamonds exist? How does a big bang create these treasures? That big bang was creative? Silver, gold, diamonds, and treasures came into existence out of nothing for no reason, at random? Or, it was created?

The big bang created these pretty birds out of nothing, gave them wings and hollow bones so they can fly
View attachment 21664View attachment 21665 View attachment 21666
Who's a pretty bird?

The Big Bang gave us a round world. How did it get round?

And put the sun in the right place, so that we could all survive.

The Big Bang gave us plants, herbs, fruits, and vegetables out of nothing.

The Big Bang gave us water and eventually oil.

Imagine a world without oil.

The big bang gave us these lovely ladies,
View attachment 21667 View attachment 21668 View attachment 21669

and their beauty came forth from nothing.... well from:

View attachment 21670


chimp-like creatures that evolved from single cell organisms, that came into existence on a round planet, that came into existence out of.... not a damn thing.

None of this is possible without the Big Bang giving us the Sun... and in the right place of course...

The Big Bang has been good to us!

Thoughts?
( okay, the thread was supposed to reek of ignorance and be silly.. it was to get you educated folks excited and load your guns .... I'm just saying it's easier to believe that a creator, some higher power working with the mechanisms of science, created it.... it's a lot more difficult to discover a scientific explanation.)

Reasoning about the origin of the Universe is an exercise in creativity. We simply don't have the means or grounds to understand how being came into existence. It is, however, reasonable to believe, IMO, that the Universe arose out of a potential for it to do so...but beyond that we can know nothing at this time.

As our science improves, however, we may come to understand something of the configuration of this Universe which would lead us to contemplate alternate configurations and maybe even a background potential out of which these multiple configurations might arise. Who knows?

Otherwise, we have metaphors we can use to try and relate to the notion of a creator. Metaphors are great but it should always be noted that they are only ever partially correct. For instance, God as a parent. We can get much benefit from this metaphor as we reach out to God as a parent in our lives who is trying to raise us up in this creation. However, would you also accept that God might have co/pro-created this Universe with a Goddess? And that this God and Goddess might have been compelled for "super-natural biological" reasons to want to "give birth" to a new creation? For me this idea is becoming more and more appealing and I long to hear the stories of how Mr and Mrs (or were they same sex? or were there three of them?) Creator got together and decided (to the extent they had any control over the matter, though they certainly were to be held responsible by their peers) to have a baby Universe together. I wonder if they leave it with its grandparents from time to time so that they can have a vacation?

Metaphors are tools that the human mind has used to create language (the Word) itself and it gives us "handles" of meaning to grasp when we "reach out" into the mystery that "surrounds" our existence.

 

[dianaiad]

I can't speak for everyone.
If you are unable to be a theist, that's fine, I'm not able to be an atheist... it's virtually impossible for me to do that, because it goes against my ability to reason and use logic.



Thoughts?
( okay, the thread was supposed to reek of ignorance and be silly.. it was to get you educated folks excited and load your guns .... I'm just saying it's easier to believe that a creator, some higher power working with the mechanisms of science, created it.... it's a lot more difficult to discover a scientific explanation.)

So...what's wrong with getting all excited about the Big Bang, and the processes of evolution, and thinking "so THAT'S how God Did IT!"

 

[sealchan]

yes

there is no issue

I'm saying the Big Bang has been generous to us, because there would be no carbon, no gold, no silver,no diamonds, no animals, no fruit, no vegetables, no oil, no water, no sun, no pretty girls, no evolutionary process , without the Big Bang...

essentially, it all came out of nothing, with no real purpose.... I'm just saying, that's a lot more difficult to believe, then to believe that there was an intelligent creative force behind it.

I'm not advocating for the Bible. I think the Bible has a bunch of stupid verses

Maybe the Big Bang was just as much a reduction of simultaneous possibilities such that it didn't create a Universe from Nothing but from Chaos. In other words, an introduction of order to what was effectively disordered from this Universe's point of view.

Even the creator needs his clay...for a creator is nothing without his material. Even a mother gives of her own substance to create.

 

[exchemist]

I'm not denying evolution.

I'm saying the material world doesn't just materialized out of nothing , for no apparent reason, as a result of some big bang, and the energy to create that big bang just comes out of nothing...

If God wanted at some point in history to turn chimps into humans, perhaps God chose to do that

Perhaps. Though the evidence we have of that change seems consistent with normal evolutionary processes.

 

[Audie]

So...what's wrong with getting all excited about the Big Bang, and the processes of evolution, and thinking "so THAT'S how God Did IT!"

The old timers who thought up the gods didnt know any of that, so,
it isnt true now either.

 

[exchemist]

So...what's wrong with getting all excited about the Big Bang, and the processes of evolution, and thinking "so THAT'S how God Did IT!"

Nothing at all. That would be fairly mainstream Christian theology, as I understand it.