Why it's easier to be a creationist than an atheist

[Cacotopia]

So...what's wrong with getting all excited about the Big Bang, and the processes of evolution, and thinking "so THAT'S how God Did IT!"

Did what since evolution seems to have no goal or aim. there is no end goal in evolution. The primary drivers in evolution is the environment. Mutations occur and if those are favorable then those mutations survive. Sickle cell anemia is one such evolutionary adaptation. You will find humans that are carriers or are afflicted with this syndrome far more often in areas of the world where exposure to malaria occurs more often. Despite the negative impact of sickle cell anemia, less oxygenated blood, less energy, you are immune to malaria. And since malaria has a high mortality rate it tends to kill off those lacking the genes for such a mutation.

Christians think god has a plan, is god's plan not a plan after all?

 

[sealchan]

I believe that the Universe was created out of some super-natural process and that a close scientific study of the Universe will reveal some of the signs of that birth like the Universe's belly button which we now call the Big Bang.

Am I the first person to see a sexual connotation to the term Big Bang?

The funny thing is...by super-natural, I mean, completely natural process of complex, adaptive system creatively forming an emergent order out of the behavior of interacting parts that are partially not part of (therefore "super") the natural activity contained within this Universe.

 

[Audie]

Nothing at all. That would be fairly mainstream Christian theology, as I understand it.

As I see it, the popularity of the bible has much to do with how it proves to
say what ever one wants to read into it. Very adaptable, almost like evolution, ya might say!

It no longer works to have it say that slavery is ok. For people of even
normal intelligence and education, it no longer says "real world wide flood".
BB, ToE are in.

Soon all will see that it quotes Jesus saying that smokin' that marijuana
is quite alright.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Why does gold, silver, and diamonds exist? How does a big bang create these treasures? That big bang was creative? Silver, gold, diamonds, and treasures came into existence out of nothing for no reason, at random? Or, it was created?

What is the objective value of silver? Gold? Diamonds? Last I checked, other animals on Earth (besides maybe raccoons) are extremely likely to ignore what you consider "treasures." We have assigned value to them based on their use (or subjective beauty) to us (humans).

The big bang created these pretty birds out of nothing, gave them wings and hollow bones so they can fly

This is an obvious over-simplification. Regardless where the matter of the universe came from, it apparently inherently has the potential to take on the forms we see in our world. That is objective fact, again, no matter where the matter "came" from.

The Big Bang gave us a round world. How did it get round?

I'm just going to come out and say that you should know this. Gravity pulls mass together, pressure builds inside causing heat, and a continual cycle of that pressure being released to the surface via magma/lava/volcanoes. Add to that the continual progression of the outdoor elements (wind/rain) eroding, and the ebb and flow of minerals (on our planet, mostly within its waters) reshaping coasts, battering rocks, wearing down mountains. Give the whole process many multiple millions of years and you get a spheroid.

And put the sun in the right place, so that we could all survive.

The sun is THE pre-requisite for life on Earth. It is where it is, like billions of other stars are where they are. Earth exists within a range of conditions that allow life to exist (and possibly develop) here. What "put" the Earth here? I have no idea. Just because i don't know it certainly doesn't mean "God" did it. And if it happened by chance, then what is the true difference that YOU CAN FEEL/DETERMINE/DETECT from that possibility and the possibility of a god having done it? There, literally, is no difference. Whether you pretend the Earth came about by chance, or you pretend that God created it, there is literally no difference to be seen in the happenings on Earth. None. If you know of any, please do let me know.

The Big Bang gave us plants, herbs, fruits, and vegetables out of nothing.

Another over-simplification. Again, the fact that the matter of the universe can be arranged in the form of living plants is objective proof that matter inherently has properties allowing it to support such forms. And that's really all the existence of plants is proof of.

The Big Bang gave us water and eventually oil.

Oil is completely inconsequential when compared to water. Regardless, if life were capable/able to arise in the universe, then SOME THINGS were going to have to form the basis upon which it rested. The fact that we find ourselves completely dependent on water is no great mystery. If it wasn't "water", it would be something else. If the universe teaches us anything it is that you don't get energy output without energy input.

Imagine a world without oil.

Billions of people lived through "a world without oil." Oil is a complete non-necessity. It is also a dastardly pollutant. To say that God gives us oil as some great gift seems sort of strange to me. We don't need cars. We don't need the machinery, or even the electricity that oil has the capability to provide us use of. That is also objective fact, since humans existed LONG before any such inventions.

The big bang gave us these lovely ladies,
and their beauty came forth from nothing.... well from:

Here you are, knocking monkeys... and yet guess what? According to your progression of thoughts here, those "lovely ladies" also each came from a puddle of sperm that swarmed an ovum. That monkey probably looks pretty darn cute versus a wad of ejaculate.

Thoughts?
( okay, the thread was supposed to reek of ignorance and be silly.. it was to get you educated folks excited and load your guns .... I'm just saying it's easier to believe that a creator, some higher power working with the mechanisms of science, created it.... it's a lot more difficult to discover a scientific explanation.)

So, ultimately, is this justification for believing in God really any better than saying: "I believe in God... because thinking is hard."? I honestly can't see that it is.

 

[LuisDantas]

( okay, the thread was supposed to reek of ignorance and be silly.. it was to get you educated folks excited and load your guns .... I'm just saying it's easier to believe that a creator, some higher power working with the mechanisms of science, created it.... it's a lot more difficult to discover a scientific explanation.)

Are you aware that theists have no need (and frankly, no good reason) to be creationists?

 

[blü 2]

If you are unable to be a theist, that's fine, I'm not able to be an atheist... it's virtually impossible for me to do that, because it goes against my ability to reason and use logic.

It appears from your post that you know nothing about science ┬ about the Big Bang, about the first generation of stars in which the elements higher than lithium were formed, and distributed into the universe by novas and supernovas, how the earth and moon formed, how life evolved from protolife to microlife to complex cells to tiny critters to sea critters with spinal chords, to sea critters with spines, to amphibiae, to land reptiles to mammals to apes to hominids to us, Homo sapiens sapiens.

So if you apply your intellect to getting a sound scientific grasp on those important subjects, you'll open a new, very large door, to understanding.

Good reading!

 

[exchemist]

As I see it, the popularity of the bible has much to do with how it proves to
say what ever one wants to read into it. Very adaptable, almost like evolution, ya might say!

It no longer works to have it say that slavery is ok. For people of even
normal intelligence and education, it no longer says "real world wide flood".
BB, ToE are in.

Soon all will see that it quotes Jesus saying that smokin' that marijuana
is quite alright.

Yes, as science itself adapts to new findings, so must Christian interpretation of the bible.

But, as I have had occasion to point out on another thread (I forget which), the story of Genesis - which is where all this nonsense with JW's etc comes from - was already being read as an allegorical myth by Origen, in about 250AD!

P.S. Please, please, don't take to saying "ya". I have a theory that people who do this on discussion forums are almost always aggressive, opinionated and ignorant.

P.P.S. Since Jesus drank wine, why not a bit of hashish (=Arabic for "grass") too?

 

[exchemist]

Are you aware that theists have no need (and frankly, no good reason) to be creationists?

I think that is what he is saying, actually.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I can't speak for everyone.
If you are unable to be a theist, that's fine, I'm not able to be an atheist... it's virtually impossible for me to do that, because it goes against my ability to reason and use logic

It is not an either/or proposition. A person can be both. You must know from the threads you have started that people have the ability to consider more than one competing idea. We can also ignore facts, lie to ourselves and daydream, hallucinate plus other things. It is not an either/or. It never was though some people may disagree. We make decisions and live with the results, but we can always imagine deciding the other way.

Why does gold, silver, and diamonds exist? How does a big bang create these treasures? That big bang was creative? Silver, gold, diamonds, and treasures came into existence out of nothing for no reason, at random? Or, it was created?

Evolution became a strong theory before the Big Bang was a sparkle in Hubble's eye. It makes no comment about God only that the small changes that happen in the reproductive cycle can under survival pressures start to accumulate, transforming one creature into something new. This doesn't oppose theology -- unless of course your interest in theology has nothing to do with morality and is only about what you can get from God.

 

[Jumi]

Did what since evolution seems to have no goal or aim. there is no end goal in evolution.

Of course we have no way of knowing that there aren't some intended things in evolution. Since we can only know that the present situation has the probability of 1, it's quite difficult to say if some odds were rigged during a period of millions of years. At least I wouldn't be courageous to say that we know odds of mutations that become us. Thus claiming that such a thing didn't happen or couldn't happen, throws the ball in your court for proof.

The primary drivers in evolution is the environment. Mutations occur and if those are favorable then those mutations survive.

Typically new environments are helpful to certain lucky mutants surviving and becoming their own stock. But those mutations can be anything. There's no saying that some bacteria will always devolop certain mutations under same conditions for example.

 

[dianaiad]

The old timers who thought up the gods didnt know any of that, so,
it isnt true now either.

I see. So anything the 'old timers' didn't know, we can't?

Or is it...anything that they knew was wrong so if they thought something was true, we can't figure that it's true ourselves?

I had teenagers with that attitude. Fortunately, they grew up and I got smarter.

 

[dianaiad]

Did what since evolution seems to have no goal or aim. there is no end goal in evolution. The primary drivers in evolution is the environment. Mutations occur and if those are favorable then those mutations survive. Sickle cell anemia is one such evolutionary adaptation. You will find humans that are carriers or are afflicted with this syndrome far more often in areas of the world where exposure to malaria occurs more often. Despite the negative impact of sickle cell anemia, less oxygenated blood, less energy, you are immune to malaria. And since malaria has a high mortality rate it tends to kill off those lacking the genes for such a mutation.

Christians think god has a plan, is god's plan not a plan after all?

Well, my own view of this is that God, being the Creator of the entire universe, just MIGHT have a more long term goal in mind than what you and I can encompass in our own limited mortal life spans.

Whenever I get the argument you are using, I am forcibly reminded of the fruit fly. Scientists have been doing genetic experiments using the fruit fly for years; countless generations of the flies. I wonder if, should those flies have the brain cells to worry about it, any of 'em wonder what sort of insane "plan" any of US might have?

 

[Audie]

I see. So anything the 'old timers' didn't know, we can't?

Or is it...anything that they knew was wrong so if they thought something was true, we can't figure that it's true ourselves?

I had teenagers with that attitude. Fortunately, they grew up and I got smarter.

Well, that is not how I meant it, and I am certainly not a Christian.

The oldtimers made up stories for things they did not know. (some do that
today!)

People of today, fundies, think the old timers were told by god, so
what they said was right.

 

[Audie]

Well, my own view of this is that God, being the Creator of the entire universe, just MIGHT have a more long term goal in mind than what you and I can encompass in our own limited mortal life spans.

Whenever I get the argument you are using, I am forcibly reminded of the fruit fly. Scientists have been doing genetic experiments using the fruit fly for years; countless generations of the flies. I wonder if, should those flies have the brain cells to worry about it, any of 'em wonder what sort of insane "plan" any of US might have?

What is your point about fruit flies?

 

[Audie]

Yes, as science itself adapts to new findings, so must Christian interpretation of the bible.

But, as I have had occasion to point out on another thread (I forget which), the story of Genesis - which is where all this nonsense with JW's etc comes from - was already being read as an allegorical myth by Origen, in about 250AD!

P.S. Please, please, don't take to saying "ya". I have a theory that people who do this on discussion forums are almost always aggressive, opinionated and ignorant.

P.P.S. Since Jesus drank wine, why not a bit of hashish (=Arabic for "grass") too?

Maybe fundies are kind of like the horsehoe crabs, or at least the possums of
mankind? They stubbornly refuse adaptive change, as the countless generations spin by?

 

[exchemist]

Maybe fundies are kind of like the horsehoe crabs, or at least the possums of
mankind? They stubbornly refuse adaptive change, as the countless generations spin by?

On the contrary, they are a recent evolutionary phenomenon, arising at the end of the c.19th and early c.20th: Christian fundamentalism - Wikipedia and finding a receptive environment mainly in the USA.

So it's all YOUR fault !

 

[Cacotopia]

I never got why the bible put god being unknowable yet talk about the machinations of god in the same book. No one here knows what god's plan is at all let alone if god ever had a plan. They presume there to be one, because they want to believe that there is one and that they are part of it. We are sociable creatures after all. Wanting something to be true does not make it the truth no matter how hard you want it to be that way. God to me is an excuse to think less and hope for the best outcome, when being proactive leads to the best outcome. Anyone letting god take the reins of their lives is doomed to failure.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Evidence has been given many times for the existence of a spirit world.

Here is one example, Witnessed by roughly 70,000 people:
Miracle of the Sun - Wikipedia

I've studied and found that there has been lots of evidence provided to our world.

People choose to ignore it

Actually? That one has been pretty much debunked, and quite thoroughly too.

Solar Miracle of Fatima

The Lady of Fátima & the Miracle of the Sun

The Miracle of Fatima

Fatima: miracle, ...

Notebook: These are a selected few, from approximately 11,000 results, the majority of which came from religious sites also debunking the "event", including the Vatican. (I did not include any of those for... reasons. )

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I can't speak for everyone.
If you are unable to be a theist, that's fine, I'm not able to be an atheist... it's virtually impossible for me to do that, because it goes against my ability to reason and use logic.

Why does gold, silver, and diamonds exist? How does a big bang create these treasures? That big bang was creative? Silver, gold, diamonds, and treasures came into existence out of nothing for no reason, at random? Or, it was created?

The big bang created these pretty birds out of nothing, gave them wings and hollow bones so they can fly
View attachment 21664View attachment 21665 View attachment 21666
Who's a pretty bird?

The Big Bang gave us a round world. How did it get round?

And put the sun in the right place, so that we could all survive.

The Big Bang gave us plants, herbs, fruits, and vegetables out of nothing.

The Big Bang gave us water and eventually oil.

Imagine a world without oil.

The big bang gave us these lovely ladies,
View attachment 21667 View attachment 21668 View attachment 21669

and their beauty came forth from nothing.... well from:

View attachment 21670


chimp-like creatures that evolved from single cell organisms, that came into existence on a round planet, that came into existence out of.... not a damn thing.

None of this is possible without the Big Bang giving us the Sun... and in the right place of course...

The Big Bang has been good to us!

Thoughts?
( okay, the thread was supposed to reek of ignorance and be silly.. it was to get you educated folks excited and load your guns .... I'm just saying it's easier to believe that a creator, some higher power working with the mechanisms of science, created it.... it's a lot more difficult to discover a scientific explanation.)

I agree that it's hard to believe that all of this arose by naturalistic processes when you don't understand how natural selection works. I'm currently reading Climbing Mount Improbable by Dawkins which is a book that gives excellent insight into how billions of baby steps driven by natural selection can lead to dramatic change that gives the illusion of design.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Yes, the Big Bang gave us all of those things I mentioned, because everything came out of nothing.

False. Look up Straw Man Logical Fallacy.

The Big Bang did not come from nothing. No physicist, if asked that question, would say such a ridiculous thing.

The Big Bang Theory does not explain where the origins of the original hot, dense, point came from. Nor does it attempt to do so--- that is outside the scope of the Theory.

Hence, the claim is a Straw Man.