Why Jews and Christians do not accept Islam?

[dybmh]

Really? What is your source for that?

He's probably confusing it with witch craft and/or Egyptian / Canaanite magic.

 

[dybmh]

the vowel sound is from the lammed

What vowel sound is it? Do all lameds have the same vowel sound?

Lee = to me
Loh = to him
Loo = to us

Can you transliterate it? Like this?

Eh-loh-heem

Here I'll help.

Aleph(segol)-Lamed
Aleph(tzeirei)-Lamed.

Niqqud - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Aleph(segol)-Lamed = El = preposition "of" "towards"

Aleph(tzeirei)-Lamed = Ail or Ale, long A vowel. = Divine heavenly power in the form of Chesed. It's not ambiguous at all.

 

[dybmh]

GD is the name of the semitic deity of fortune.

Isa 65:11 - But ye are they that forsake t
YHWH, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for GD, and that furnish the drink offering unto MNY.

That only works if that is the only thing YHVH does.

Don't forget Isaiah...

כה־אמר יהוה גאלך ויצרך מבטן אנכי יהוה עשה כל נטה שמים לבדי רקע הארץ מי אתי [מאתי]׃

Thus says the יהוה, your redeemer, and he who formed you from the womb, I am the Lord who makes all things; who stretches the heavens alone; who spreads abroad the earth by myself

YHVH is also redeemer and solitary source which is creating.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Firstly, did you know that, when Muhammad was among people of Arabia, many of Arab Jews and Christians believed in Him? (Right or wrong?l

Secondly, why the Jews and Christians,.now do not believe in Muhammad?

I can't speak for Christians, so I will only speak for Jews who were in Arabia. First, there is an Islamic version of what Jews were doing, about, and held by and there is a Jewish version. There are a number of Jewish texts from Yemenite and Adenite Jewish communities about the rise of Islam.

In order to even address such an issue one has to first know what types of Jews were even in the region. Historically, the groups that are said to have been there were the:

• Banu Harith
• Banu Qaynuqa
• Banu Shutayba
• Jafna Clan of the Banu Tha'labah
• Banu Zaura
• and the Banu Abir

So, first there were a few Jewish tribes in Arabia that are "claimed" to converted to Islam during a time of war. The wording here is very important. I.e. they "converted to Islam during a time of war." Yet, there were Jewish tribes that did not convert during said war. There were some, which some Islamic histories don't mention, but Jewish ones from the region do that resisted the push and were able to remain on some uneasy terms with the changing landscape.

That being said, the Jews who did convert to Islam though within two generations cannot not be clearly identified as being Jewish. It is important to note that prior to the rise of Islam in the region, in Yemen there was a Jewish kingdom known as the Himyar. The Himyar were a mix of Jews migrants from Israel who had settled in about 400 BCE and localized converts to the Torah. That being said, after the establishment of Islam it is not clear how many Jewish conversions to Islam were from a) local Arabians who had earlier convert to Jewish communities or b) ancetral Jews who had migrated to the region.

At a certain, the region became very difficult for Jews to live in and the only outputs of Jewish life were spread out between Yemen and Aden.

Now, with all of that history. The reasons why Jews who remained Jewish after the rise of Islam did not convert to Islam, or the seperate issue of accepted Muhammid, that is easy. Neither situation was something that was supported in the Torah, and the Jews of those generations knew that if they held out they or their descendants could survive the situation. This was proven to be true.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But once, someone says why they do not accept Islam, then debate starts "we debate on if those reasons are valid reasons"

Why does there have to be a debate on this issue? Jews have been in the presence of those who would become Muslims prior to Islam and those who became Muslim after the start of Islam. There is no debate on why Jews don't become Muslim or accept Islam, the Jewish reasons have been clear for more than 1,400 years. What changed all of a sudden where a debate or even a rehash of the reasons are needed?

 

[blü 2]

Secondly, why the Jews and Christians,.now do not believe in Muhammad?

I think that on the balance of probabilities there was an historical Muhammad.

The one thing I personally know about the Qur'an, having tried to read it, is that it's unreadable, a miscellany of snippets. Articles have drawn my attention to the manner in which some of these are in direct contradiction of others of these, such as 'Wine is fine' and 'Wine is banned'. Other articles have discussed the creation ─ the collection and assembling ─ of the Qur'an ─ and I'd need a great deal of faith more than I possess to think that overall they represent the words of Muhammad. Rather, I take it they reflect various skeins of Arabian politics, including religious politics, in the two hundred years or so after Muhammad's death.

From my experiences of Christianity, not least up to my adolescence, I personally know that they teach that their God is the one and only true God. Since this seems necessary to validate Christianity as a monotheistic religion (and while I wouldn't call the Trinity doctrine monotheistic, they do). I dare say the same is true of Islam.

But since I don't know of any reason to think that supernatural beings are real ─ can be found in the world external to the self ─ I don't know of any reason to think that the God of Muhammad is real.

 

[Ebionite]

So they would know that Moshe had an encounter with the God of their fathers,

That makes no sense because that is a different name. Moses was also told that name in Exodus 3:15, as you highlighted.

 

[Ebionite]

He's probably confusing it with witch craft and/or Egyptian / Canaanite magic.

Genesis 1 describes signs in the heavens which could be interpreted as astrology.

 

[Ebionite]

What vowel sound is it? Do all lameds have the same vowel sound?

As I understand it the vowel sound is derived from the bounding letters of the syllable. Some letters can have a dagesh which affects the pronunciation of the associated vowel(s).

 

[Ebionite]

That only works if that is the only thing YHVH does.

No, GD is a name of a different deity, regardless of their different activities.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

Replacing one aya by another is not about abrogation. There is abrogation of Quran in Quran, but it's situations with situations.

Why there was a need of abrogation of Quran in Quran?
God wasn't able to say that Final Verse first, instead of saying a verse that He has to correct or change it later?

 

[Link]

Why there was a need of abrogation of Quran in Quran?
God wasn't able to say that Final Verse first, instead of saying a verse that He has to correct or change it later?

What are you talking about? Quran abrogation never took place in that sense.

 

[I Am Hugh]

No.

ויאמר אלהים יהי מארת ברקיע השמים להבדיל בין היום ובין הלילה והיו לאתת ולמועדים ולימים ושנים׃

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years
;

Here's what I could do here. I've already stated my position simple and straight forward. Since I've published articles on this in the past in response to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible (SAB) I could link to those old forum responses on my website and people would ***** about self-promotion. I could repost them and the eager little antagonists would do a search on my response and cry "plagiarism" because I have published them elsewhere and my websites always have a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License, meaning everyone is welcome to copy my stuff. They don't have a non-attribution restriction but I usually put that on my site. I don't care about attribution. I could just link to it but no one would follow it. So, I'm just going to dump it. If you don't like it, don't read it.

The short answer is the conclusion but I will put it first and post the rest for anyone who wants to read more.

But what does the Bible really say about astrology? Does it contradict itself? The SAB uses Genesis 1:14. This doesn't really require any scholarly approach to the Bible through linguistics or any other means; it only requires a little common sense. The verse is obviously referring to the practical use of the sun and moon as signs of night and day and of seasons, not of the mystical use for the purpose of ascertaining ones fortune and future. Astrology was often closely connected to the pagan gods, and the fact that God forbade such use makes this quite clear.


Read more
On What the Bible Says about Astrology the Skeptic's Annotated Bible (SAB), using the King James Version has come to the erroneous conclusion that there is some contradiction. They have come to this conclusion due, not to any discrepancy in the Bible but rather a confusion of what the Bible is actually saying regarding the sun and moon being a sign of the seasons, of the stars being used in a figurative sense, etc.

An attempt to understand more carefully what the Bible teaches about such things would easily clear up any confusion the earnest Bible student may have regarding astrology. Part of this educational process would logically include a brief examination of the history of astrology.

As far back as 1800 B.C.E. star catalogs were kept in Mesopotamia, they were instrumental to the Babylonians for predicting astronomical events such as lunar eclipses, marking the movement of planets and the rising and setting of constellations. Ancient people such as the Assyrians, Chinese, Egyptians, Greeks, Native Americans, Romans and others watched the sky and kept records of astronomical events. They were thus able to make calendars and plan yearly events such as planting and harvesting of crops.

To a superstitious people astronomy became astrology when they began to think that since the signs of the sun, moon and stars allowed them to predict the seasons, the ebb and flow of the tide, the flood of the Nile followed by the appearance of Sirius, then perhaps they could predict ones future or fortune.

The Babylonians thought of the stars as the heavenly abode of the gods. Bright stars, eclipses, and comets were thought to bring wrath upon the earth from the gods. Wars were fought and kings looked to their astrologers to ascertain the future.

The form of astrology that we know today comes from the Greeks. In the second century C.E. Greek astronomer Claudius Ptolemy from Alexandria, Egypt compiled a four book astrological record entitled Tetrabiblos. This has served as a basic text for what is today called natal astrology, a means of predicting ones future by charting the position of the stars, sun, moon and planets on the date of ones birth.

In the 13th century the Zohar or Sefar ho-zohar (Hebrew Book of Splendor) wrote: "On the firmament which envelops the universe, we see many figures formed by the stars and planets. They reveal hidden things and profound mysteries. Similarly, upon our skin which encircles the human being there exist forms and traits that are the stars of our bodies." This work inspired the reading of the face and palm for predicting the future.

By the 14th and 15th century astrology had gained a great deal of respect in the West. Universities were teaching it as a discipline which required skills in language and mathematics. Astrologers were thought of as scholars. It had a tremendous influence on human affairs, from building, wars, travel, business, in the lives of noblemen and the royal court. The writings of William Shakespeare are full of references to the astrological influences on human affairs.

In Strasbourg in 1531 John of Indagine wrote a book on the subject which quoted Jesus at Matthew 6:22 - "If, then, your eye is simple, your whole body will be bright." He concluded that large, bright, and round eyes indicated integrity and good health but sunken and small eyes were signs of envy, suspicion and malice. Just two years later Bartolommeo Cocle, in his book Compendium of Physiognomy, claimed that large and round eyes were an indication that a person was fickle and lazy.

Chiromancers (palm readers) believed that the hands reflected the forces from above and they searched the Bible for references to that effect. Misapplication of verses such as Job 37:7 which reads; "He sealeth up the hand of every man; that all men may know his work" and Proverbs 3:16 - "Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour."

Though the work of astronomers like Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler, who have clearly demonstrated the unscientific reasoning behind astrologers from the past - that the planet Earth is not the center of the universe, that some stars that appear in a constellation are not bound to a specific group, that planets are lifeless rock masses or gases, as well as the discovery with the telescope of planets not known to exist in ancient times such as Uranus, and Neptune which would have influenced the charts we still use today, many people remain enchanted by astrology.

Genetics tells us that our traits are formed upon conception, not nine months later at birth, and we see that the sun is about one month behind what it was 2,000 years ago when the charts we use today were drawn up. That would mean that a Cancer (highly sensitive, moody and reserved) would actually be a Gemini (communicative, witty and chatty.)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What are you talking about? Quran abrogation never took place in that sense.

You said it yourself:

Replacing one aya by another is not about abrogation. There is abrogation of Quran in Quran, but it's situations with situations.

Perhaps you want to explain what you mean here.

Quran clearly says that:

"When We replace a verse with another—and Allah knows best what He reveals—they say, “You ˹Muḥammad˺ are just a fabricator.” In fact, most of them do not know."
Quran 16:101


Question: why Allah replaces a verse by another verse? Couldn't He say the final verse first, instead of saying something that He has to change it later?

 

[wellwisher]

Firstly, did you know that, when Muhammad was among people of Arabia, many of Arab Jews and Christians believed in Him? (Right or wrong?l

Secondly, why the Jews and Christians,.now do not believe in Muhammad?

Christianity became the official religion of Rome in the 4th century AD; 306-337 AD under Emperor Constantine. Muhammad came around in the 6-7th century; lived from 570-632 AD While Romulus Augustus in the 5th century; 475–476 AD, is typically regarded as the last Western Roman emperor, or even the last Roman emperor overall, with his deposition seen as marking the end of the Western Roman Empire as a political entity.

There was a metamorphosis of Rome, from a political entity, to one that was political-religious and then into a religious-political entity; Holy Roman Empire, that was still influenced by the imperial nature of once the great Roman Empire. Mohammad appears after the change was complete as an alternative entity in the Arab region of the world. People were losing their spiritualuty.

In the year 610 CE, troubled by the moral decline and idolatry prevalent in Mecca and seeking seclusion and spiritual contemplation, Muhammad retreated to the Cave of Hirain the mountain Jabal al-Nour, near Mecca. It was during his time in the cave that he is said to have received the first revelation of the Quran from the angel Gabriel.[119] The event of Muhammad's retreat to the cave and subsequent revelation is known as the "Night of Power" (Laylat al-Qadr) and is considered a significant event in Islamic history. During the next 22 years of his life, from age 40 onwards, Muhammad continued to receive revelations from God, becoming the last or seal of the prophets sent to mankind.[50][51][120]

My guess is the riff was more political than spiritual. Both religions tried to not only structure the spirit, but also the day to day secular life, which led to different customs. In this forums, somewhere, I remember reading how Muhammad had some Christian friends who were had the spirit, but he made a distinction, with these friends being different from the more secularize Christians. It may have come down to secular politics forcing both religions to take sides and not be able ot interact.

The modern analogy would be like the Liberal Atheist going after Christians so they have to walk on eggshells, thereby separating them from an open acceptance of their fellow Christians. After a few generations, fewer go to church but stay in the spiritual underground.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why does there have to be a debate on this issue? Jews have been in the presence of those who would become Muslims prior to Islam and those who became Muslim after the start of Islam. There is no debate on why Jews don't become Muslim or accept Islam, the Jewish reasons have been clear for more than 1,400 years. What changed all of a sudden where a debate or even a rehash of the reasons are needed?

There's a few dots that have to be connected. InvestigateTruth is a Baha'i. Baha'is believe that a "true" believer in God will see the truth that the new messenger has been sent by the same one, true God and will convert.

So, any example of Jews converting to Christianity or to Islam helps their cause. As would examples of Christians converting to Islam or Christians and Muslims converting to the Baha'i Faith.

In Baha'i belief only those stuck in the past, and those who take their religion too literally are the only ones that refuse to convert. So, not converting is a bad thing. But does that mean the ones that do convert don't take their religious beliefs literally or even seriously? I think they probably didn't and were open to converting to another religion.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

There's a few dots that have to be connected. InvestigateTruth is a Baha'i. Baha'is believe that a "true" believer in God will see the truth that the new messenger has been sent by the same one, true God and will convert.

So, any example of Jews converting to Christianity or to Islam helps their cause. As would examples of Christians converting to Islam or Christians and Muslims converting to the Baha'i Faith.

In Baha'i belief only those stuck in the past, and those who take their religion too literally are the only ones that refuse to convert. So, not converting is a bad thing. But does that mean the ones that do convert don't take their religious beliefs literally or even seriously? I think they probably didn't and were open to converting to another religion.

Thanks for letting me know that.

 

[Link]

You said it yourself:


Perhaps you want to explain what you mean here.

Quran clearly says that:

"When We replace a verse with another—and Allah knows best what He reveals—they say, “You ˹Muḥammad˺ are just a fabricator.” In fact, most of them do not know."
Quran 16:101


Question: why Allah replaces a verse by another verse? Couldn't He say the final verse first, instead of saying something that He has to change it later?

Abrogation Quran by Quran, is when one situation cancels another. It's not that a verse is forever cancelled, it's the situation applies to one but not the other so you have to assess the situation.

Nasikh of Quran by Quran is a different thing that these verses you quote have nothing to do with.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Abrogation Quran by Quran, is when one situation cancels another. It's not that a verse is forever cancelled, it's the situation applies to one but not the other so you have to assess the situation.

Can you give some examples about Abrogation Quran by Quran?

Nasikh of Quran by Quran is a different thing that these verses you quote have nothing to do with.

Here is the verse:

"When We replace a verse with another—and Allah knows best what He reveals—they say, “You ˹Muḥammad˺ are just a fabricator.” In fact, most of them do not know."
Quran 16:101

What does this verse mean? What is an example of this verse?

 

[Link]

Can you give some examples about Abrogation Quran by Quran?



Here is the verse:

"When We replace a verse with another—and Allah knows best what He reveals—they say, “You ˹Muḥammad˺ are just a fabricator.” In fact, most of them do not know."
Quran 16:101

What does this verse mean? What is an example of this verse?

It means Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) replaced the Prophets (a) of Bani-Israel and their scriptures in simple terms. Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) are a proof.

Every time this happens in almost all times, they say to the Messenger that is starting the replacement that you are a fabricator.

So this happened to Mohammad (s) and it happened to others as well.