Absolutely Frank
Member
I think it is for the simple reason that some people identify as Jews and Christians for whatever reason they like and we should respect their decision and celebrate diversity.
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Why Jews and Christians do not accept Islam?
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
I Am Hugh
Researcher
Are you talking about Saturnalia becoming Christmas or are you talking liturgy? Who does mass? What is mass? When was Christmas mass first practiced, by whom and what was it? You see what I'm saying? It sounds like you are taking vague ambiguous bits and mixing them.
Early Christians (Jews), didn't celebrate birthdays. There are two birthdays recorded in the Bible, both by pagans and both resulting in death. The latter in the death of John the Baptist. Modern day Christmas celebrations come from Saturnalia, basically, and were, like many pagan practices and teachings, adopted by the church. Christ wasn't born in December, that's all about the pagan winter solstice. According to the most accurate Biblical chronology, Jesus was probably born in early October. The star on the modern day Christmas tree - that was Satan leading the astrologers to the infant Jesus so Herod could follow them and kill him.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
"When We replace a verse with another—and Allah knows best what He reveals—they say, “You ˹Muḥammad˺ are just a fabricator.” In fact, most of them do not know."
Quran 16:101
It has been always the case, that, when God replaced His own commands with another command, due to the changes in conditions and requirements, the disbelievers thought the Prophet fabricated it. They did not know, it was God's word. It is because people did not see or hear the voice of God directly when He spoke to the Prophet, thus, wrongfully accused the Prophet of fabricating verses.
Salam
Replacing one aya by another is not about abrogation. There is abrogation of Quran in Quran, but it's situations with situations.
168- سعد عن علي بن محمد الكليني عن إسحاق بن محمد النخعي عن شاهويه بن عبد الله الجلاب قال: كنت رويت عن أبي الحسن العسكري عليه السلام في أبي جعفر ابنه روايات تدل عليه، فلما مضى أبو جعفر قلقت لذلك وبقيت متحيرا لا أتقدم ولا أتأخر، وخفت أن أكتب إليه في ذلك فلا أدري ما يكون. فكتبت إليه أسأله الدعاء وأن يفرج الله تعالى عنا في أسباب من قبل السلطان كنا نغتم بها في غلماننا. فرجع الجواب بالدعـاء ورد الغلمان علينـا،وكتب في آخر الكتاب: أردتَ أن تسـأل عن الخلف بعد مضي أبي جعفر، وقلقت لذلك، فلا تغتم، فإن الله لا يضل قوماًبعد إذ هداهم حتى يبين لهم ما يتقون. صاحبكم بعدي أبو محمد ابني، وعنده ما تحتاجون إليه. يقدم الله ما يشاء ويؤخر ما يشاء: ﴿ما نَنْسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ أَوْ نُنْسِها نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِنْها أَوْ مِثْلِها﴾. قد كتبت بما فيه بيان وقناع لذي عقل يقظان.
H 168 - Saad and Ali bin Muhammad Kulaini have narrated from Ishaq bin Muhammad Nakhai from Shawiya bin Abdullah Jallab that he said: I previously narrated a report from Imam Hadi (a.s) about his son, Abu Ja’far, which proved his Imamate; but when Abu Ja’far passed away from the world, I was so astonished and bewildered that I did not know what to do and I was in a dilemma and I feared writing to the Imam about it. At last, I wrote a letter to the Imam asking him for supplication to Almighty Allah to save us from the hardships imposed on us from the ruler with regard to our youth. Reply to the letter came with a supplication of the Imam and the difficulty of our youth was also solved. At the end of the letter, the Imam had written: You wanted to ask me about the successor after the death of Abu Ja’far (Muhammad) and you are anxious due to that. Don’t be: “It is not (attributable to) Allah that He should lead a people astray after He has guided them; He even makes clear to them what they should guard against.” (9:115) Your leader after me is Abu Muhammad (Askari), my son. He has everything, which they need. God brings forward whatever He wishes and delays whatever He wishes: Whatever from a Sign We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. (2:106) In this is a clear explanation and convincing proof for one who has a watchful disposition.
Kitāb al-Ghayba, Imamate of Imam Hasan Askari (a.s), Hadith #6
thaqalayn.net
This hadith uses it as a proof that Hassan Al-askari (a) will replace Imam Hadi (a).
Replacing one aya by another is not about abrogation. There is abrogation of Quran in Quran, but it's situations with situations.
168- سعد عن علي بن محمد الكليني عن إسحاق بن محمد النخعي عن شاهويه بن عبد الله الجلاب قال: كنت رويت عن أبي الحسن العسكري عليه السلام في أبي جعفر ابنه روايات تدل عليه، فلما مضى أبو جعفر قلقت لذلك وبقيت متحيرا لا أتقدم ولا أتأخر، وخفت أن أكتب إليه في ذلك فلا أدري ما يكون. فكتبت إليه أسأله الدعاء وأن يفرج الله تعالى عنا في أسباب من قبل السلطان كنا نغتم بها في غلماننا. فرجع الجواب بالدعـاء ورد الغلمان علينـا،وكتب في آخر الكتاب: أردتَ أن تسـأل عن الخلف بعد مضي أبي جعفر، وقلقت لذلك، فلا تغتم، فإن الله لا يضل قوماًبعد إذ هداهم حتى يبين لهم ما يتقون. صاحبكم بعدي أبو محمد ابني، وعنده ما تحتاجون إليه. يقدم الله ما يشاء ويؤخر ما يشاء: ﴿ما نَنْسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ أَوْ نُنْسِها نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِنْها أَوْ مِثْلِها﴾. قد كتبت بما فيه بيان وقناع لذي عقل يقظان.
H 168 - Saad and Ali bin Muhammad Kulaini have narrated from Ishaq bin Muhammad Nakhai from Shawiya bin Abdullah Jallab that he said: I previously narrated a report from Imam Hadi (a.s) about his son, Abu Ja’far, which proved his Imamate; but when Abu Ja’far passed away from the world, I was so astonished and bewildered that I did not know what to do and I was in a dilemma and I feared writing to the Imam about it. At last, I wrote a letter to the Imam asking him for supplication to Almighty Allah to save us from the hardships imposed on us from the ruler with regard to our youth. Reply to the letter came with a supplication of the Imam and the difficulty of our youth was also solved. At the end of the letter, the Imam had written: You wanted to ask me about the successor after the death of Abu Ja’far (Muhammad) and you are anxious due to that. Don’t be: “It is not (attributable to) Allah that He should lead a people astray after He has guided them; He even makes clear to them what they should guard against.” (9:115) Your leader after me is Abu Muhammad (Askari), my son. He has everything, which they need. God brings forward whatever He wishes and delays whatever He wishes: Whatever from a Sign We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. (2:106) In this is a clear explanation and convincing proof for one who has a watchful disposition.
Kitāb al-Ghayba, Imamate of Imam Hasan Askari (a.s), Hadith #6
Hadith #6 - Imamate of Imam Hasan Askari (a.s) | Thaqalayn
Imamate of Imam Hasan Askari (a.s)
This hadith uses it as a proof that Hassan Al-askari (a) will replace Imam Hadi (a).
12ـ عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ إِسْحَاقَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ شَاهَوَيْهِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الله الْجَلابِ قَالَ كَتَبَ إِلَيَّ أَبُو الْحَسَنِ فِي كِتَابٍ أَرَدْتَ أَنْ تَسْأَلَ عَنِ الْخَلَفِ بَعْدَ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ وَقَلِقْتَ لِذَلِكَ فَلا تَغْتَمَّ فَإِنَّ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ لا يُضِلُّ قَوْماً بَعْدَ إِذْ هَدَاهُمْ حَتَّى يُبَيِّنَ لَهُمْ مَا يَتَّقُونَ وَصَاحِبُكَ بَعْدِي أَبُو مُحَمَّدٍ ابْنِي وَعِنْدَهُ مَا تَحْتَاجُونَ إِلَيْهِ يُقَدِّمُ مَا يَشَاءُ الله وَيُؤَخِّرُ مَا يَشَاءُ الله ما نَنْسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ أَوْ نُنْسِها نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِنْها أَوْ مِثْلِها قَدْ كَتَبْتُ بِمَا فِيهِ بَيَانٌ وَقِنَاعٌ لِذِي عَقْلٍ يَقْظَانَ.
12. Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Ishaq ibn Muhammad from Shahwayh ibn ‘Abdallah al-Jallab who has said the following. “Abu al-Hassan wrote to me in a letter as herein below. “You wanted to ask about the succeeding Imam after (the death) of abu Ja‘far and you were anxious about it. Do not feel sad; “God does not misguide a nation after having given them guidance until the means of piety are made known to them. . .” (9:115) Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, does not neglect the people whom He has granted guidance to go astray until He clarifies for them the means with which they can maintain piety. You master (Imam) after me will be, my son, abu Muhammad (a.s.). With there is whatever you would need. Allah allows to precede whatever He wants and Allah allows to succeed whatever He wants. “For whatever sign We change or eliminate or cause to recede into oblivion, We bring forth a better sign or like it.. .” (2:106). I have written enough convincing facts for the people of reason with awareness.”
Al-Kāfi - Volume 1, Tacit and Explicit Testimony as proof of abu Muhammad al-Hassan ‘s (a.s.) Divine Authority over the people after Ali ibn Muhammad (a.s.), Hadith #12
thaqalayn.net
12. Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Ishaq ibn Muhammad from Shahwayh ibn ‘Abdallah al-Jallab who has said the following. “Abu al-Hassan wrote to me in a letter as herein below. “You wanted to ask about the succeeding Imam after (the death) of abu Ja‘far and you were anxious about it. Do not feel sad; “God does not misguide a nation after having given them guidance until the means of piety are made known to them. . .” (9:115) Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, does not neglect the people whom He has granted guidance to go astray until He clarifies for them the means with which they can maintain piety. You master (Imam) after me will be, my son, abu Muhammad (a.s.). With there is whatever you would need. Allah allows to precede whatever He wants and Allah allows to succeed whatever He wants. “For whatever sign We change or eliminate or cause to recede into oblivion, We bring forth a better sign or like it.. .” (2:106). I have written enough convincing facts for the people of reason with awareness.”
Al-Kāfi - Volume 1, Tacit and Explicit Testimony as proof of abu Muhammad al-Hassan ‘s (a.s.) Divine Authority over the people after Ali ibn Muhammad (a.s.), Hadith #12
Hadith #12 - Tacit and Explicit Testimony as proof of abu Muhammad al-Hassan ‘s (a.s.) Divine Authority over the people after Ali ibn Muhammad (a.s.) | Thaqalayn
Tacit and Explicit Testimony as proof of abu Muhammad al-Hassan ‘s (a.s.) Divine Authority over the people after Ali ibn Muhammad (a.s.)
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Salam
Replacing one aya by another is not about abrogation. There is abrogation of Quran in Quran, but it's situations with situations.
168- سعد عن علي بن محمد الكليني عن إسحاق بن محمد النخعي عن شاهويه بن عبد الله الجلاب قال: كنت رويت عن أبي الحسن العسكري عليه السلام في أبي جعفر ابنه روايات تدل عليه، فلما مضى أبو جعفر قلقت لذلك وبقيت متحيرا لا أتقدم ولا أتأخر، وخفت أن أكتب إليه في ذلك فلا أدري ما يكون. فكتبت إليه أسأله الدعاء وأن يفرج الله تعالى عنا في أسباب من قبل السلطان كنا نغتم بها في غلماننا. فرجع الجواب بالدعـاء ورد الغلمان علينـا،وكتب في آخر الكتاب: أردتَ أن تسـأل عن الخلف بعد مضي أبي جعفر، وقلقت لذلك، فلا تغتم، فإن الله لا يضل قوماًبعد إذ هداهم حتى يبين لهم ما يتقون. صاحبكم بعدي أبو محمد ابني، وعنده ما تحتاجون إليه. يقدم الله ما يشاء ويؤخر ما يشاء: ﴿ما نَنْسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ أَوْ نُنْسِها نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِنْها أَوْ مِثْلِها﴾. قد كتبت بما فيه بيان وقناع لذي عقل يقظان.
H 168 - Saad and Ali bin Muhammad Kulaini have narrated from Ishaq bin Muhammad Nakhai from Shawiya bin Abdullah Jallab that he said: I previously narrated a report from Imam Hadi (a.s) about his son, Abu Ja’far, which proved his Imamate; but when Abu Ja’far passed away from the world, I was so astonished and bewildered that I did not know what to do and I was in a dilemma and I feared writing to the Imam about it. At last, I wrote a letter to the Imam asking him for supplication to Almighty Allah to save us from the hardships imposed on us from the ruler with regard to our youth. Reply to the letter came with a supplication of the Imam and the difficulty of our youth was also solved. At the end of the letter, the Imam had written: You wanted to ask me about the successor after the death of Abu Ja’far (Muhammad) and you are anxious due to that. Don’t be: “It is not (attributable to) Allah that He should lead a people astray after He has guided them; He even makes clear to them what they should guard against.” (9:115) Your leader after me is Abu Muhammad (Askari), my son. He has everything, which they need. God brings forward whatever He wishes and delays whatever He wishes: Whatever from a Sign We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. (2:106) In this is a clear explanation and convincing proof for one who has a watchful disposition.
Kitāb al-Ghayba, Imamate of Imam Hasan Askari (a.s), Hadith #6
Hadith #6 - Imamate of Imam Hasan Askari (a.s) | Thaqalayn
Imamate of Imam Hasan Askari (a.s)
This hadith uses it as a proof that Hassan Al-askari (a) will replace Imam Hadi (a).
This Hadith is an allusion that, there will be a delay in Birth of the Son of Hassan!
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
So why would Moses be told to tell the people that name if they asked?
GD is the name of the semitic deity of fortune.
Isa 65:11 - But ye are they that forsake t
YHWH, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for GD, and that furnish the drink offering unto MNY.
Aleph lammed, the vowel sound is from the lammed.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
How could you possibly know that?
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
Why Muslims and Jews don't accept Christianity?
Why Muslims and Christians don't accept Judaism?
I Am Hugh
Researcher
Astrology was punishable by death. Why?
Only the astrologers saw the star. Why?
Herod wanted Jesus dead. Why?
The star led them first to Herod. Why?
What happened at the Massacre of the innocents?
Matthew 2:16–18
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
No. Correlation is not causation.
More on mass and other rites on Christmas:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christmas
Provides a detailed overview of the holiday from the fourth century through the modern age. Includes links to related topics
I Am Hugh
Researcher
Elohim (God, gods) is used with other gods like Dagon (1 Samuel 5:7); Ashtoreth (1 Kings 11:5) and Marduk (Daniel 1:2). I AM isn't a name. I Am Hugh. From a footnote to Exodus 3:14 (NWT)
"“I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” Heb., ה ר ה (ʼEh‧yeh′ ʼAsher′ ʼEh‧yeh′), God’s own self-designation; Leeser, “I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE”; Rotherham, “I Will Become whatsoever I please.” Gr., E‧go′ ei‧mi ho on, “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One”; Lat., e′go sum qui sum, “I am Who I am.” ʼEh‧yeh′ comes from the Heb. verb ha‧yah′, “become; prove to be.” Here ʼEh‧yeh′ is in the imperfect state, first person sing., meaning “I shall become”; or, “I shall prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. Compare Ge 2:4 ftn, “Jehovah,” where the kindred, but different, Heb. verb ha‧wah′ appears in the divine name."
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Muslims do accept Jesus as the Messiah.
Muslims and Christians do accept Moses.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
I recognize that I'm no longer a true Christian, (just "semi") but even when I was Moses was definitely accepted. So where does your thought come from?
Salam
He might be talking about when he will receive death, as well, concerning the verse it also can mean Allah (swt) chose the time Mohammad (s) to replace the guidance of Prophets (a) of Bani-Israel out of his wisdom. So he delayed and brought it forth as he pleases. He uses the verse to show there definitely will be a leader after him, which is Hassan Al-Akari (a). It can also refer to when the occultation would take place and when it would end.
The Aya in flow of the Surah, is showing, Bani-Israel has guidance in form of scriptures and guides, and is giving an assessment how they performed to show that the people entrusted the Prophets failed them.
However, now that God is replacing the guidance they were entrusted to pass to humanity, he will bring something on par or better, and this also goes well with "O God Master of the Authority, you give the authority to who you wish and negate it from who you wish..." in Surah Auli-Imran, which also links to the authority given to Talut (a) and Ayatul Kursi.
And this goes back to the Imammate entrusted to Ibrahim (a) and his asking of it in his offspring.
As bani-Israel were given Imams, it makes sense this nation would do. But the verse is saying that and more. It's saying a proof of God is always replaced with something like it or better.
Recall Surah Bayana designates Mohammad (s) as the proof.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Really? What is your source for that?
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
So they would know that Moshe had an encounter with the God of their fathers, The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That's immediately preceding the verse with ehyeh, and ehyeh-asher-ehyeh. And then immediately following it. See for yourself.
3:13
ויאמר משה אל־האלהים הנה אנכי בא אל־בני ישראל ואמרתי להם אלהי אבותיכם שלחני אליכם ואמרו־לי מה־שמו מה אמר אלהם׃
And Moses said to God, Behold, when I come to the people of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of your fathers has sent me to you; and they shall say to me, What is his name, what shall I say to them?
3:14
ויאמר אלהים אל־משה אהיה אשר אהיה ויאמר כה תאמר לבני ישראל אהיה שלחני אליכם׃
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and he said, Thus shall you say to the people of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.
3:15
ויאמר עוד אלהים אל־משה כה תאמר אל־בני ישראל יהוה אלהי אבתיכם אלהי אברהם אלהי יצחק ואלהי יעקב שלחני אליכם זה־שמי לעלם וזה זכרי לדר דר׃
And God said moreover to Moses, Thus shall you say to the people of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you; this is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all
generations.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
No.
ויאמר אלהים יהי מארת ברקיע השמים להבדיל בין היום ובין הלילה והיו לאתת ולמועדים ולימים ושנים׃
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years
;