Why learn about other faiths?

[Unveiled Artist]

@iam1me

Sorry. I read the bible twice. I don't read it anymore the reason I just mentioned.

 

[iam1me]

I never said I didnt. I read it twice.

You did. Great that you read it a couple times, but that's just an introduction to the scriptures.

Imsults and killing are wrong. They hurt just like a sword. I put emphasis on making because thats what insults are like.

The bible speaks of the sword being word not something dangerous like insults and klong

Got to read it on context. I wasnt mean about it nor sarcastic. It is what it is.

Clarifying that you meant "insults" still does not clear up why you said what you did: no one was suggesting that the passage is calling for us to insult people either.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You did. Great that you read it a couple times, but that's just an introduction to the scriptures.



Clarifying that you meant "insults" still does not clear up why you said what you did: no one was suggesting that the passage is calling for us to insult people either.

Insult: religions outdated. They are impure before. Things like that.

Sword was mentioned to prove insults are part of what Christ did so it gives excuse for others believers to do likewise. I get this from JW. They translate what jesus did as insults to say phrasee as an excuse to be rude.

Sword=gods word jesus bought to jews

Christ didnt insult by saying that as contextually read (and repeated use just JW are more direct about it. Bahai go around the bush.) With the sword.

Sword doesn't mean to-insult (I used kill for emphasis)

Sword wasnt an excuse to insult by christ.

Jesus used it to bring gods Word.

What I said other than this is besides the point and don't care to argue who said this or that.

 

[iam1me]

Insult: religions outdated. They are impure before. Things like that.

Sword was mentioned to prove insults are part of what Christ did so it gives excuse for others believers to do likewise. I get this from JW. They translate what jesus did as insults to say phrasee as an excuse to be rude.

Sword=gods word jesus bought to jews

He didnt insult by saying that as contextually read (and repeated use just JW are more direct about it. Bahai go around the bush.) With the sword.

Sword wasnt an excuse to insult.

Jesus used it to bring gods Word.

What I said other than this is besides the point and don't care to argue who said this or that.

You need to go back and read the scripture in context - it isn't talking about insults at all.It is saying that one must choose God above all else - and that by doing so divisions will be created between you and the world - even between you and your own mother and father.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In other words, using the sword verse to support insults and being ignorant of it to make one a victim wasn't what Christ meant.

Sword was uses to refer to his father's word


Trialar said the insults not you.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You need to go back and read the scripture in context - it isn't talking about insults at all.It is saying that one must choose God above all else - and that by doing so divisions will be created between you and the world - even between you and your own mother and father.

Sheesh.

Read. My. Posts.

Trailer said he was not insulting and he posted the sword verse to support it.

I said---he is incorrect. The sword Does Not refer to insults but to gods word.

Address tailer not me. I wasnt speaking to you.

You did not insult. Trailar did. You just came in between and threw off on correcting something I agree with you on.

Sheesh.

 

[Muffled]

I believe it helps to know what false information people have so it can be refuted and better information provided in a helpful way.

 

[iam1me]

Sheesh.

Read. My. Posts.

Trailer said he was not insulting and he posted the sword verse to support it.

I said---he is incorrect. The sword Does Not refer to insults but to gods word.

Address tailer not me. I wasnt speaking to you.

You did not insult. Trailar did. You just came in between and threw off on correcting something I agree with you on.

Sheesh.

The confusion was caused by you replying to me as if I was part of your conversation with Trailar. At any rate, if you agree that is fine then.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But what is the ultimate truth? Does anyone other than the Baha'is have the truth for today? No, the Baha'i Faith is the only way for humankind to attain peace and harmony.

That is what a lot of us are hearing from Baha'is. It may not be said plainly. It might be said with lots of love. But, that's what the nice words sound like. That

He tries to reinforce his (wise) instructions with this type of Abrahamic rethoric. It is as if he is saying: 'be very impressed with what I say because I myself am speaking with the voice of God!'
I don't know the Quran, but I can imagine it also happens there.
Why do Abahamic faiths think that they need this?
It makes me think of Monty Python.
I hope this doesn't sound nasty, it isn't meant as such.

I love monty python life of Brian, he is just a naughty boy.

The key to this issue is if Baha'u'llah is talking with the Voice of God or not.

That is the choice we have been given.

So if God is our path to unity and Baha'u'llah is the Messenger in this agw then this is what we are faced with;

"...The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded."

Thus as a person on this planet that longs for peace, love and unity, I feel I am at least obligated to keep offering this solution.

I hope it can be appreciated that the motivation is not for self, it is not about being right or wrong, it is about our Unity.

How else can we do this if Baha'u'llah Message is that solution?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is it also Muhammed himself who uses this kind of language or is it the (unknown) author of the Quran who sneeked it in? The Jesus of Q-lite never uses it (not Abrahamic but living in the same area).
For me personally it weakens my interest in what is being said considerably.
Perhaps it takes a certain type of personality to be susceptable or to not be bothered.

This has been for me a hard lesson to understand and that is submission. I have found out that this is what Muhammad taught. Submission unto Gods Word.

I see this is why Muhammad was needed after Jesus. Jesus showed us a personal way to God and that we could all acheive this with belief. But with this level of knowledge, we have a tendancy to pride in that knowledge and as such attempted interpretation at the level of a prophet and we failed.

Submission is a necessary and worthy attribute. Who to submit to is our choice.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So then why did Baha'u'llah have slaves, and why are women forbidden to hold the top office of Baha'i faith?

Baha'u'llah did not have slaves. His father did have slaves. Baha’u’llah’s anti-slavery views may be traced all the way back to 1839 (if not before), when Baha’u’llah liberated the household slaves owned by his father, Mirza Buzurg.

Details at this link Slaves

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Baha'u'llah did not have slaves. His father did have slaves. Baha’u’llah’s anti-slavery views may be traced all the way back to 1839 (if not before), when Baha’u’llah liberated the household slaves owned by his father, Mirza Buzurg.

Details at this link Slaves

Regards Tony

Tony, I read it in this document: Black Pearls: Notes on Slavery But sure. Not that it matters.

 

[Milton Platt]

One of the strengths of religious forum is the diversity of Faiths represented. That presents an excellent opportunity to learn about the faiths of others. This opportunity doesn’t readily present itself to the same degree where I live as religion has become a risky topic of conversation and so best avoided. This year I joined my cities Interfaith council so that’s been helpful.

But why learn about the religion of another in the first place? What is your motivation and what is mine? It’s a personal question really. For me I like to see the bigger picture of ‘world history’ with civilisations that have come and been, and ideologies and beliefs that inspired the masses. It helps me better understand the world as it is today and others in an increasingly multicultural world. It also brings coherence to my own faith and worldview I can not deny.

Obviously there’s other agendas too. We can learn about another faiths so we can make our own beliefs look good and demean others. Many of us know that illusory satisfaction in our worldview as we build our straw man as to what we imagine another’s faith is about. Ego trips are part of the human condition and whose really immune?

Anyway thoughts and reflections? Thanks for listening and discussing if your interested.

I mostly learn about religious "faiths" because people who believe them tend to want me to believe they are somehow true. So I read about them and ask questions. So far, evidence has not been forthcoming.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm not aware of any Baha'is on RF that beleive they are God. Are you?

Ego is a problem for us all if you go back and read my OP.

I'll have to dig up the source, but I remember reading about an fMRI study where believers were asked a series of questions about their own opinions, the opinions of other people, and God's opinions. They found that when you ask a believer about what they think God's opinion is on something, it doesn't light up the parts of the brain that light up when they're asked about someone else's opinions; it lights up the same areas as when they're asked about their own opinions.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, I read it in this document: Black Pearls: Notes on Slavery But sure. Not that it matters.

All good Vinayaka, thank you.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Christianity is concerned with doing God's will and with teaching all people to obey God's commands. Politics and economics are two important areas of our lives where Christianity definitely has something to say - for they can both be sources of good and of evil for mankind, with far reaching effect.

Jesus taught God’s will and laws for a fixed period just as Moses did. There are laws that are universal for all time (Deuteronomy 6:5) and others that reflect a particular age. Christianity OTOH provides mixed and contradictory messages as to what it thinks God’s will is. It’s commentary on modern politics and economics is a good example of its confusion.

At any rate, there is no denying that the Christian right has by and large gone off the deep end and do not reflect the teachings of Christ in the least. Trying to equivocate these indoctrinated conservative view points with those who actually study the scriptures and try to abide by them are like trying to say night is the same as day. Even to a non-Christian, their hypocrisy and outright contempt for Jesus' teachings is all to apparent. They have largely chosen conservatism and greed over God - only worshiping him with their lips, but not their hearts.

Of course the Christian right will have a retaliatory and equally judgemental perspective regarding the Christian Left.

First off, trying to find a "new way" that appeases the greed of the world so that it is more acceptable to such people is only to compromise your beliefs to match theirs - not a way of making the world a better place. You should be very concerned if the beliefs you espouse are readily acceptable by such worldly people.

The new way for me is Bahá’u’lláh’s Teachings that better reflect Gods will and laws for the age we live in. I apply Baha’i principles not those of capitalism nor socialism.

Secondly, Christ's teachings were never intended to bring unity to the world - to the contrary, his teachings are contrary to the ways of the world. Capitalism is a simple example: the world loves capitalism, for they are greedy and desire personal gain more than they care about their fellow man. Christ says you cannot love God and money - you will love one and hate the other. And love for God is exemplified through love for one's fellowman - for if you do not love your fellow man before your very eyes, then you cannot love God whom you cannot see. And indeed - just look at how socialism is daemonized by the Capitalists for daring to suggest that wealth be more evenly distributed so that everyone's needs are met. They'd much rather the masses die in the street for lack of affordable Health Care than see one penny of theirs be put to such a use.

Christ’s Teachings have laid an important foundation for everlasting peace with His command to teach the Gospels to all nations. The Teachings of Universal Love are another example. But its not enough to acknowledge Christ alone but all the Great Teachers that have gone before and after. I believe Christ spoke of other faiths (John 10:16). To me those other great Teachers include Moses, Muhammad and Bahá’u’lláh.

Trying to apply Christ’s Teachings to addressing modern political and economic problems appears fraught. A better priority might be to address attitudes that perpetuate religious prejudice. Good work has been done in overcoming prejudice based on race and gender. But if you have an exclusive understanding of who Christ is that denies God’s will through His other Messengers you have a serious problem, do you not?

Matthew 10:34-39 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ 37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

Christ was reminding His disciples they may suffer greatly and be rejected by family simply for following Him. It’s a good example of a biblical verse that’s been misconstrued to mean something it isn’t.

John 15:18-22 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’b]">[b] If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin

That’s saying the same thing. It’s hardly an issue these days. Nearly 60% of the worlds population believes in Christ if you include the Muslims.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I mostly learn about religious "faiths" because people who believe them tend to want me to believe they are somehow true. So I read about them and ask questions. So far, evidence has not been forthcoming.

Have you always been an atheist? What would constitute evidence for you?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'll have to dig up the source, but I remember reading about an fMRI study where believers were asked a series of questions about their own opinions, the opinions of other people, and God's opinions. They found that when you ask a believer about what they think God's opinion is on something, it doesn't light up the parts of the brain that light up when they're asked about someone else's opinions; it lights up the same areas as when they're asked about their own opinions.

That doesn’t mean they believe they are God though, just they believe God exists and God has made His thoughts known to others. Very few Abrahamic adherents would believe they personally are God and if they did would probably have a mental illness.

 

[Vinayaka]

That doesn’t mean they believe they are God though, just they believe God exists and God has made His thoughts known to others. Very few Abrahamic adherents would believe they personally are God and if they did would probably have a mental illness.

Indeed. There are about 1000 known ones who publicly claimed it. Probably another 50 000 or so in asylums. It's got to be a tough gig.

 

[Trailblazer]

So according to followers of the Bahai faith their preceptor was qualified to judge and decide which parts of older traditions were still valid and which had become outdated and could be discarded?

Yes, because He was the representative and mouthpiece of God and His Will was identical with the Will of God.

“The Person of the Manifestation hath ever been the representative and mouthpiece of God. He, in truth, is the Day Spring of God’s most excellent Titles, and the Dawning-Place of His exalted Attributes. If any be set up by His side as peers, if they be regarded as identical with His Person, how can it, then, be maintained that the Divine Being is One and Incomparable, that His Essence is indivisible and peerless? Meditate on that which We have, through the power of truth, revealed unto thee, and be thou of them that comprehend its meaning.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 70​

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167​

Your trust in your preceptor must indeed be very high.

It is at 100%.

My own preceptor also "adjusts" or "modifies" different teachings from the past by shining a new light on them.

Baha’u’llah does not adjust or modify teachings from past religions. Those remain as they were revealed. Baha’u’llah simply brought the new message of the unity of mankind and new social teachings and laws that are pertinent to the age in which we live.

The spiritual teachings of all the older religions are eternal thus they will never be abrogated. Baha’u’llah refreshed those teachings and brought them back to life, shining a “new light” on them. For example:

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

“For every one of you his paramount duty is to choose for himself that on which no other may infringe and none usurp from him. Such a thing—and to this the Almighty is My witness—is the love of God, could ye but perceive it.

Build ye for yourselves such houses as the rain and floods can never destroy, which shall protect you from the changes and chances of this life. This is the instruction of Him Whom the world hath wronged and forsaken.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 261​

He does so in another way than the Bahai preceptor though ("less Abrahamic"?) and never claims that older traditions are no longer functioning as they should do or should be replaced or followed up by the newer ideology.

Baha’u’llah did not claim that the older traditions should be replaced, only that they will eventually be unified into one religion of God:

“The Faith standing identified with the name of Bahá’u’lláh disclaims any intention to belittle any of the Prophets gone before Him, to whittle down any of their teachings, to obscure, however slightly, the radiance of their Revelations, to oust them from the hearts of their followers, to abrogate the fundamentals of their doctrines, to discard any of their revealed Books, or to suppress the legitimate aspirations of their adherents. Repudiating the claim of any religion to be the final revelation of God to man, disclaiming finality for His own Revelation, Bahá’u’lláh inculcates the basic principle of the relativity of religious truth, the continuity of Divine Revelation, the progressiveness of religious experience. His aim is to widen the basis of all revealed religions and to unravel the mysteries of their scriptures. He insists on the unqualified recognition of the unity of their purpose, restates the eternal verities they enshrine, coordinates their functions, distinguishes the essential and the authentic from the nonessential and spurious in their teachings, separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions, and on this as a basis proclaims the possibility, and even prophecies the inevitability, of their unification, and the consummation of their highest hopes.”
Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day Is Come, p. 108​