Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[Curious George]

It's reasonable to assume that religious indoctrination has a high chance of causing harm, even if you disregard "telling kids false things is in itself harm".



Sure, one can. Religious indoctrination causes harm. Raising kids without religious indoctrination doesn't cause harm. Therefore the second option is better.



What proof thing?

Where you were trying to prove one belief was factually better than the other but used faulty logic in your attempt.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am not sure. What do you think I am basing my opinion on?

I have no idea. I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt that your argument had some substance behind it. If I assumed incorrectly, I apologize.

 

[Curious George]

It's reasonable to assume that religious indoctrination has a high chance of causing harm, even if you disregard "telling kids false things is in itself harm".



Sure, one can. Religious indoctrination causes harm. Raising kids without religious indoctrination doesn't cause harm. Therefore the second option is better.



?

If it factual that instilling religious belief causes harm, prove it.

 

[Curious George]

I have no idea. I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt that your argument had some substance behind it. If I assumed incorrectly, I apologize.

Nope. Only logic, in which others' arguments, suggesting that religious indoctrination is bad or worse than not instilling religious preference, lacks

 

[Magic Man]

If it factual that instilling religious belief causes harm, prove it.

OK, religious indoctrination caused me harm, therefore religious indoctrination causes harm.

 

[LuisDantas]

If it factual that instilling religious belief causes harm, prove it.

Two words: Jim Jones.

Another word: homophoby.

 

[metis]

I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying that you raised your kids in both faiths? And what do you mean by "exclude"?

We didn't bring our kids up in both faiths but had decided to bring them up in my wife's Catholic faith. But because there were segments of my family in different denominations whereas we would normally attend their more important functions, the kids had questions and we would answer them, but not in the manner "we are right and they are wrong".

BTW, since I had taught comparative religions, this also helped since we did "hopping" from one place to another and I would provide the explanations. Our son didn't like any of this, so he stopped going altogether around the age of 11-12, and he still doesn't affiliate at the age of 41, but he does attend our major religious functions. BTW, my wife is 64, and she just decided a few weeks ago that she's leaving both her church (same one for 40 years) and Christianity.

 

[Curious George]

Two words: Jim Jones.

Another word: homophoby.

Those are specific examples that do not demonstrate that religious indoctrination is the problem but rather that specific examples of religious indoctrination or specific ways in which some people religiously indoctrinate are harmful.

This is my point. Most people UN this thread look at specific harms and then make blanket statements. This is poor logic.

 

[LuisDantas]

Those are specific examples that do not demonstrate that religious indoctrination is the problem but rather that specific examples of religious indoctrination or specific ways in which some people religiously indoctrinate are harmful.

And that happens to be plenty enough.

This is my point. Most people UN this thread look at specific harms and then make blanket statements. This is poor logic.

Seriously? :sarcastic

 

[idav]

I think that what I'm describing can still be an issue even when there isn't deliberate forcing.

For instance, I remember a former member here talking about his experience when he lost his faith: it was like all of his departed loved ones died again all at once, since it suddenly hit him that he couldn't expect to see them in Heaven any more.

Imagine that you're in that situation and you've never been given any tools to deal with grief other than the promise of reunion in Heaven. How are you suppose to cope? And this isn't even an issue of using God as a scapegoat; for plenty of well-meaning devout parents, the idea that Heaven might not exist is so foreign to them that they don't even bother to think about how to handle things in that case.

That's just one example of where even well-meaning religious indoctrination by loving parents can create problems. I'm sure there are others.

That is one thing that people are trying to feel better about death. Death isn't easy to cope with even with religious beliefs in a rewarding heaven. That doesn't seem like so much a religious issue to me.

When you lose loved ones and you don't believe in an afterlife, is it any easier?

The scapegoat is telling your kids do it or else your going to hell. Then to tell them that they just need to believe and they will live happily for eternity. At that point their moral code is based on reward and punishment and god is the scapegoat for trying to get to heaven. Finding out later there isn't a heaven becomes an issue for why the individual would follow any moral code at all.

It has to do with the intentions. I've used the golden rule a way to justify certain moral behaviors and the golden rule can apply with or without god, so long as commands aren't being followed just cause a book said we should.

 

[Magic Man]

Those are specific examples that do not demonstrate that religious indoctrination is the problem but rather that specific examples of religious indoctrination or specific ways in which some people religiously indoctrinate are harmful.

This is my point. Most people UN this thread look at specific harms and then make blanket statements. This is poor logic.

Which is why I gave an example of a problem stemming from just religious indoctrination. I was indoctrinated, and it caused me emotional harm. And that wasn't even from strict forced indoctrination, just the common bringing up in the religion.

 

[Curious George]

OK, religious indoctrination caused me harm, therefore religious indoctrination causes harm.

First, that is opinion.

Second, that is a case study that only reflects a specific example and method and is not demonstrative of religious indoctrination as a whole.

Third, you have failed to demonstrate that religious indoctrination caused harm and it wasn't some other factor.

 

[ChristineES]

Two words: Jim Jones.

Another word: homophoby.

Religions, for the most part, are not run by a sociopath/narcissist like Jim Jones. And who says religions teach gay hatred? (I now refuse to use the term homophobia, because it does not accurately describe the phenomena). When I say "indoctrinate", I mean teaching kids to say their prayers or whatever.

 

[Magic Man]

That is one thing that people are trying to feel better about death. Death isn't easy to cope with even with religious beliefs in a rewarding heaven. That doesn't seem like so much a religious issue to me.

When you lose loved ones and you don't believe in an afterlife, is it any easier?

His point was that teaching them about heaven as a way to cope caused them harm when they stopped believing in the religion and no longer knew how to cope with such loss.

 

[ChristineES]

Another term I keep hearing is that people of religions do not rely on themselves. I find this, for the most part, to be a misconception- a big misconception. The vast majority of people of religions do take their family members to the hospital if they have an illness, only a few will rely on prayer alone to cure the person. The vast majority of people of religions get jobs and work and don't pray that God showers money down on them so they can live.

Once again, I see people judging religions on what a few extremists might do rather than what the majority do.

 

[idav]

His point was that teaching them about heaven as a way to cope caused them harm when they stopped believing in the religion and no longer knew how to cope with such loss.

Sure but death isn't a very easy thing to cope with regardless of hopes and beliefs. Is there some special non-religious way to cope with losing loved ones?

 

[Curious George]

And that happens to be plenty enough.



Seriously? :sarcastic

Absolutely this happens far too much, but your gripe doesn't logically stem from religious indoctrination but rather specific instances or methods of religious indoctrination.

 

[Magic Man]

Another term I keep hearing is that people of religions do not rely on themselves. I find this, for the most part, to be a misconception- a big misconception. The vast majority of people of religions do take their family members to the hospital if they have an illness, only a few will rely on prayer alone to cure the person. The vast majority of people of religions get jobs and work and don't pray that God showers money down on them so they can live.

Once again, I see people judging religions on what a few extremists might do rather than what the majority do.

What is this in response to? I haven't seen anyone make any claims to which this response would be relevant.

 

[Magic Man]

Sure but death isn't a very easy thing to cope with regardless of hopes and beliefs. Is there some special non-religious way to cope with losing loved ones?

Your question is irrelevant. The point is that the religious indoctrination caused someone harm by not giving them the tools to cope with loss outside of their religious beliefs.

 

[Magic Man]

Absolutely this happens far too much, but your gripe doesn't logically stem from religious indoctrination but rather specific instances or methods of religious indoctrination.

My gripe stems from religious indoctrination itself, which I've said a few times now and shown why.