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Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Then I guess the word is useless and we'll have to stop using it altogether.
When we describe something as a fact, we are asserting it is true. Proof of this is generally regarded to be only possible in closed discourse realms- namely, mathematics (including logic). Language is not formal (if it were, we'd be unable to say just about anything). We trade the precision of formal languages for the descriptive power of fuzzy concepts, constructions, etc., that make up spoken languages. The more useful terms are for discourse, the more useless they are, in general, for things like proofs, models, theories, etc.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
A fact is something that is true , yes. On the other hand many things are true without having been proven true.

Undoubtedly, and so those things aren't facts yet.

For instance, if a scientist starts investigating the claim "On average hamster babies are larger at birth than gerbil babies", it might turn out to be true, but it's not a fact until he investigates it enough to prove it. If he hasn't done that and makes the claim, calling it a fact, people will rightly question why it's a fact.

So I cannot give you scientific evidence nor I care to. I know it's true and I plan to pass it on.

You don't know it's true; you believe it. I can't stop you from passing it on, but I can recommend against the practice in general.

You may freely believe it is indoctrination, but you cannot evidence that beyond all doubt unless you prove it is not a fact (in other words, unless you prove it is not true) that god/s exists.

I don't have to prove it's not true to prove it's not a fact, just as I don't have to prove the claim "hamster babies are larger on average at birth than gerbil babies" is false to show that it's not a fact. Unless there has already been investigation done on this, it's not a fact.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
It only needs to be true to be a fact.

No, it has to be known to be true.

What you are saying is that before we had the means to prove the Earth was round is wasnt true because we were unable to prove it.

No, I'm saying it wasn't a fact, not that it wasn't true.

Thats your prerrogative. For starters your use of it is different than the one in the oxford and the merriam, so there is that.

No, it's not.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Undoubtedly, and so those things aren't facts yet.

For instance, if a scientist starts investigating the claim "On average hamster babies are larger at birth than gerbil babies", it might turn out to be true, but it's not a fact until he investigates it enough to prove it. If he hasn't done that and makes the claim, calling it a fact, people will rightly question why it's a fact.



You don't know it's true; you believe it. I can't stop you from passing it on, but I can recommend against the practice in general.



I don't have to prove it's not true to prove it's not a fact, just as I don't have to prove the claim "hamster babies are larger on average at birth than gerbil babies" is false to show that it's not a fact. Unless there has already been investigation done on this, it's not a fact.

Again, you are pretending something is only true when we have evidence for it.

According to this philosophy, the Earth wasnt round until we found out about it.

You are free to indoctrinate your kids thus.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
No, it has to be known to be true.

Do you want us to go to the definition of known? Because we can go there. I already did, you ignored it before.

Also, one of the definitions is simply "that it exists" which does not include "that people ow that it exists" which would still make "fact" a usable word for anything that exists.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
When we describe something as a fact, we are asserting it is true.

Correct. We're asserting we know it is true. The only way to know it's true is for it to be proven.

Proof of this is generally regarded to be only possible in closed discourse realms- namely, mathematics (including logic). Language is not formal (if it were, we'd be unable to say just about anything). We trade the precision of formal languages for the descriptive power of fuzzy concepts, constructions, etc., that make up spoken languages. The more useful terms are for discourse, the more useless they are, in general, for things like proofs, models, theories, etc.

You lost me here. What I said was, if we can't know something is a fact, then the term "fact" becomes useless in language.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Again, you are pretending something is only true when we have evidence for it.

According to this philosophy, the Earth wasnt round until we found out about it.

You are free to indoctrinate your kids thus.
Accidental truth doesn't count, because it's not useful.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Again, you are pretending something is only true when we have evidence for it.

No, I'm acknowledging that something is only a fact when we know it's true. We only know it's true when we have proof.

According to this philosophy, the Earth wasnt round until we found out about it.

You are free to indoctrinate your kids thus.

:facepalm:
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Do you want us to go to the definition of known? Because we can go there. I already did, you ignored it before.

I haven't ignored anything. You can get all the definitions you want.

Also, one of the definitions is simply "that it exists" which does not include "that people ow that it exists" which would still make "fact" a usable word for anything that exists.

But if we don't know it exists, then it doesn't meet the definition "that it exists". We have to know that to be true to accurately use the word that way.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
but it's not a fact until he investigates it enough to prove it.
The sciences don't deal with proof precisely because there is no answer to the question "when is something investigated enough?". My 2 default examples are from physics and the cognitive sciences. What we call classical physics was (and in many ways still is) the most spectacularly successful scientific framework ever. It is the epitome of the so-called "hard sciences". Then, early in the 20th century, something happened. About a hundred years before Einstein's work in 1905, Young had successfully demonstrated ("proved", for our purposes) that light was a wave. It was a relatively simple experiment that you can reproduce for yourself. There is no way for particles to exhibit interference effects. Young showed light did, and thus had to be a wave. Then, early in the 20th century Einstein showed it was composed of discrete "packets" or particles. Neither researcher did anything wrong. Both experiments were sound, but they contradicted one another. There was no way for them to be both correct and nothing wrong with either, so what was the problem? The entire framework of classical physics. Neither particles nor waves really exist and pretty much all of physics up to that point turned out to be wrong (often approximating accuracy, but wrong nonetheless).
All experiments are performed within a framework. For example, for the last 30 odd years two general theories of cognition have existed in contradiction to one another. Embodied cognition holds that even fundamentally abstract reasoning relies on sensorimotor programs. So, for example, these is no language faculty or language module but rather language is a domain general skill that relies on things like metaphorical extensions of our physical experience (embodiment) in the world. There are decades of experiments behind this view, yet it is rejected by classical cognitive scientists. Why? Because they have different starting assumptions and therefore interpret experimental results differently. I once asked the head of my lab what would happen if embodied cognition scientists finally performed good enough experiments such that there were no alternate explanations possible. He said that we'd have to suspect the tools used were the problem. Why? Because he believes the framework itself to be so supported that if we don't find the evidence we should, we aren't looking the way we should.
It's a good thing that quantum physics didn't require any very complicated experiments, because nobody wanted it and nobody liked it. It was antithetical to the entire scientific program up to that point. However, there was no way around it. We weren't dealing with massively complex systems, incredibly vast data sets (as in e.g., an fMRI scan), lots of qualitative variables, etc. We were dealing with what was quite literally at that time the simplest systems imaginable. Yet we still had contradicting results. And now the three most successful physics frameworks, classical mechanics, relativistic physics and quantum mechanics are likewise in conflict with one another.
 
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Me Myself

Back to my username
I haven't ignored anything. You can get all the definitions you want.



But if we don't know it exists, then it doesn't meet the definition "that it exists". We have to know that to be true to accurately use the word that way.

But I do know God is true. I just dont have the means to impart the evidence directly to you :p
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
The sciences don't deal with proof precisely because there is no answer to the question "when is something investigated enough?".

I'm using "proof" as shorthand for "proven beyond reasonable doubt". Technically nothing is ever 100% proven, but there's a point where we can reasonably say it is. For instance, it's possible the world is not round, but we have more than enough evidence to consider it proven.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Because it can't be proven, as I've said many times already.

As long as I am aware of it and it is true, I know it. Given that I know it and it is true, it is a fact.

Facts dont need to be proven, just "known" . I know it, so there.
 
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