Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[Me Myself]

I'm not sure how religious upbringing didn't have much to do with it. She did it because she believed she'd go be with her dad.

The point is, even a simple teaching of religious beliefs like heaven, which is a very common one, can have harmful effects.

Anything can have harmful effects.

Without percentages to back this up, this truly says nothing.

By suicides alone, lets remember this

Atheism Has A Suicide Problem | Dangerous Talk

 

[Falvlun]

I can't frubal you again, but I will eventually for this post.

Done! That was a great post!

Thanks guys! You guys had been doing just fine, but figured I'd throw my two cents in too.

 

[sojourner]

She did it because she believed she'd go be with her dad.

No, she did it because she was mentally unstable. The loss of her dad was the catalyst.

The point is, even a simple teaching of religious beliefs like heaven, which is a very common one, can have harmful effects.

The point is that "suicide" is not a teaching in her religion. The sanctity of life is. The suicide is a result of aberrant thinking, not religious teaching.

 

[Curious George]

It seems a lot of people are lumping your approach with Star Trek in with "teaching your religion to your children". They are two different things. In the same way you would't say you taught your children Star Trek, you wouldn't say the same about the same approach regarding religion. It's the difference between teaching them your religion and teaching them about your religion.

Essentially, it breaks down to:

1) Parents' religion forced on children through abuse or threats (like physical abuse or just disowning).

2) Parents' religion taught to children as if it's fact with the implication that they should believe it.

3) Parents' religion explained to the children when they ask, but only in the context of that being what they believe and others have many other beliefs.

We all agree that number 1 is wrong, and I think we all agree number 2 is acceptable. So, the only question is about number 2. I think it's the wrong way to go, as I think option 3 is the only acceptable way. I'd also say both 1 and 2 constitute indoctrination.

2) So telling your child that God is real, or Karma is real, or attaining enlightenment is truly possible is unacceptable?

You want people to treat their children as agnostics and let them discover their own way. I get that. However, this is all based on your belief that this is the best way to raise a child. It is not a fact. It is not provable. It is merely a belief which you would like parents to implement.


In real life, parents are going to communicate their beliefs to children. For instance, some will tell their children it is better to use nice words; some will tell their children that they shouldn't say bad words; some will ignore the bad words in an effort to extinguish the behavior; some will positively reinforce the language they want. Some will explain that bad words can hurt other people's feelings and since we know how it feels to have your feelings hurt (we don't like it), that we should try not to hurt others feelings. I don't condemn any of these approaches. However it is absurd to expect a parent to tell their two-year old "I believe that saying bad words is wrong. Some people believe that it is right; you should choose for yourself."

 

[Falvlun]

It's not watering it down when the result is the same. My parents took me to church, sent me to Catholic school and generally taught me Catholicism as fact. It wasn't as harsh as your example, to be sure, but the result was the same: me being Catholic and believing in everything religious they did.

That's seriously your criteria for determining whether something is "brainwashing"? Brainwashed: Believing that something is true that your parents have told you.

In that case, I was "brainwashed" when my parents told me that vegetables were good for me.

I was "brainwashed" when my teacher taught me that George Washington was the first President.

This would make every single child brainwashed. After all, all of them believes something that their parents taught them.

I assume that you acknowledge a difference between "brainwashing" and teaching/informing/educating. What do you think that is?

The end result of both could very well be the same: Children believing that something is true because they were told it was true by an authority figure.

Thus, the end result isn't the distinguishing factor. The distinguishing factor is the methodology, how you get to the end point.

Homicide and accidental death both have the same result-- a dead person. So why do we have different words or ways of thinking about them? Because how they get there is a relevant difference.

It seems to me that you are calling homicide on an accidental death.

 

[Koldo]

She may have committed suicide simply based on the assumption that she could not live without her dad... Again, it's the mental instability, and not the religious upbringing that are compelling in this case.

That is not what the text said though.

 

[Koldo]

Incorrect. She still could have killed herself because she missed her dad so much, and death was a release from that pain. We don't know nor will we ever know what could have, should have, or would have happened had the scenario been tweaked.

That is not what the text said though.

 

[Me Myself]

That is not what the text said though.

Its good that the text is unbias

 

[sojourner]

That is not what the text said though.

That is not what the text said though.

You're conveniently forgetting that all Christians learn about heaven, that most Christians have lost someone close to them, and that healthy Christians do not commit suicide as a result of that teaching. Sick individuals commit suicide for reasons that, in and of themselves, are not the real reasons. The real reason is mental and/or emotional instability. It matters not "what the text said though." What matters is what really happened.

 

[Falvlun]

Why base this determination on how frequently it occurs and not the level of harm?

"Brainwashing" refers to an action-- a method of teaching-- and not the content being taught.

You can argue that it is harmful to teach a child religion. But teaching harmful things isn't necessarily brainwashing. Just as all brainwashing isn't necessarily the teaching of harmful things.

Furthermore, "brainwashing" is a term used to express extreme indoctrination, usually accomplished by forms of psychological stress, isolation, and sometimes physical/mental torture.

It is not used to describe the ways children are usually taught things. Thus, comparing the way religion is often taught, with methods of teaching we find acceptable, is a good way to determine whether religious teaching-- as a whole-- conforms to these norms or falls into the extremes of brainwashing.

An accidental death can be sad and horrible, but that don't make it a homicide.

 

[Me Myself]

"Brainwashing" refers to an action-- a method of teaching-- and not the content being taught.

You can argue that it is harmful to teach a child religion. But teaching harmful things isn't necessarily brainwashing. Just as all brainwashing isn't necessarily the teaching of harmful things.

Furthermore, "brainwashing" is a term used to express extreme indoctrination, usually accomplished by forms of psychological stress, isolation, and sometimes physical/mental torture.

It is not used to describe the ways children are usually taught things. Thus, comparing the way religion is often taught, with methods of teaching we find acceptable, is a good way to determine whether religious teaching-- as a whole-- conforms to these norms or falls into the extremes of brainwashing.

An accidental death can be sad and horrible, but that don't make it a homicide.

I aprove this message

 

[Curious George]

That is not what the text said though.

I did not say that the text said anything. I said your conclusion about the text is wrong.

You cannot conclude that it would not have happened. The most you can conclude, given assumptions of truth and sincerity in the note and assumptions that the daughter did not omit anything else of relevance, is that the daughter wanted to see her dad again.

 

[Falvlun]

I agree with you, neither religion or atheism causes suicide.

I think I'd take a more nuanced approach:

Obviously, there are likely going to be a number of factors that induce people to kill themselves.

I don't think it's unreasonable to acknowledge that sometimes, religion is a strong or determining factor in such a decision (just like a person's atheism, or lack of religion, could be.)

 

[Falvlun]

I think that several people in this thread - yourself included - are trying to minimize the significance of very common harmful practices.

For instance, you yourself said that you're opposed to infant baptism... to when a priest and the child's parents declare that a child is Christian for the rest of his or her life regardless of how the child feels once he or she grows up. I don't think you can ignore that the largest Christian denomination on the planet insists that its members do this to their children... and that's just one example.

You seriously think that this constitutes harm?

I was baptized as a 12 year old. That splash of water, and my lifelong registry as a Lutheran, have absoutely no impact on me whatsoever.

How much less would a baby care? Or someone who doesn't even remember the rite?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I don't think you can ignore that the largest Christian denomination on the planet insists that its members do this to their children... and that's just one example.

I didn't realize I was so harmed by this.

Seriously? This is your example?

 

[Curious George]

I didn't realize I was so harmed by this.

Seriously? This is your example?

I hardly feel that parents superstitions damage the child. I think when behavior is extreme enough it can cause harm, but the culprit is the extreme behavior not all superstitions in general.

I am no more opposed to baptism than I am to Doljanchi, or purchasing your child a rabbits foot. Nor do I believe allowing children to believe in Santa Clause is so harmful that we should have a thread judging the parents that do.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I think when behavior is extreme enough it can cause harm, but the culprit is the extreme behavior not all superstitions in general.

Indoctrination to some extent is inevitable. Extreme versions tend to be (as you say) individuals and are far from limited to the religious nor do the individuals who do engage in dangerous/harmful indoctrination in the name of religion tend to be exemplars of the religion they indoctrinate in the name of. Just look at Islam. In some countries, indoctrination in this religion is about as harmful as one can get. In others, it's not necessarily any more harmful than being indoctrinated into socialism or capitalism. Why? Because in some countries the culture itself is what's sexist, oppressive, extremist, etc. (and even then there are plenty of exceptions). This thread is ridiculous.

 

[Koldo]

Its good that the text is unbias

Yeah, let us ignore what the text says...

 

[Koldo]

You're conveniently forgetting that all Christians learn about heaven, that most Christians have lost someone close to them, and that healthy Christians do not commit suicide as a result of that teaching. Sick individuals commit suicide for reasons that, in and of themselves, are not the real reasons. The real reason is mental and/or emotional instability. It matters not "what the text said though." What matters is what really happened.

Do you claim to know what really happened?

Do you claim to know what was her reasoning to suicide at that moment?

I am not forgetting anything. I am aware this belief is not in itself sufficient to suicide. The matter is whether or not it was a relevant ingredient in the mix on this particular case.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Yeah, let us ignore what the text says...

Yes let's. Because this junk is called "appeal to emotion" and is generally recognized as a being a fallacious argument. It's illogical bunk that couldn't be less relevant. "The Soviet Union murdered and killed millions and it was atheist! Atheist indoctrination kills! Spread the word!" Please.