Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[sojourner]

it's unreasonable to expect children to make lifelong commitments.

It's unreasonable to expect anyone to make lifelong commitments. It's not, however, unreasonable to ask them to commit under the assumption that it will be for a lifetime, knowing that circumstances change and we are not perfect. That's why being "marked as Christ's own for ever" is more a commentary on God's fidelity -- not our own.

Was it you who decided to be baptized, or was it something your parents pushed you into?

Me. And, God willing, every day I'm getting better at living into those vows.

 

[Koldo]

Yeah, but that clearly isn't within the scope of Christian teaching, as I said before. Therefore, it's the result of some mental imbalance -- such as wishful thinking gone overboard.

Do you mean that 'I will meet my father on heavens when i die.' is not within the scope of christian teachings?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Do you mean that 'I will meet my father on heavens when i die.' is not within the scope of christian teachings?

Considering that the largest groups of Christians on the planet consider suicide to guarantee one's place in hell, then perhaps it isn't.

 

[Koldo]

If I knew the person for a good time and we had spoken about the situation for a good time I might better know when the person is making excuses for herself (as we all do for a bunch of stuff) and when she is saying what she actually feels.

This will give me the knowledge. (Or at least be closer to it than a single note)

That will give you an insight on her.
Do not confuse this insight, which is made of speculations, with knowledge.

This does not give you knowledge of it. If I tell you, you still have a similar problem we currently have with the text: someone says her motivations are x. Is this someone right or not?

You may not trust my empathy ( nor would you have a reason to do so as you dont know me) you did not personally spend time with her talking about that issue, etc.

You would have no reason to trust my judgement, just as I have no reason to trust her judgement.

I have no reason to trust your judgement because you are not her.

 

[sojourner]

I'd have major misgivings about any church that would want a 9-year-old child as a member by himself or herself, but I can see a small number of scenarios where it would probably be okay.

Baptism isn't an individual decision, though. It's a community decision, undertaken by candidate, parents, guardians, religious leaders, community, and God. And to push the theological understanding even further, the baptismal act is primarily God's act -- not the individual's act. I suspect God knows what God's doing.

 

[Curious George]

Assuming whether this suicide would also have happened if she did not uphold that belief is particularly tricky. It just might be the case that another particular belief ( related to religion or not ) might also have lead her into suicide as well.

I would agree. We cannot conclude either way though. And the argument others are putting forth that suggest the suicide was likely to occur regardless of any one particular belief is strong. Thus, reasonable minds can disagree. This is why I say what might have happened is hardly a fact.

 

[Koldo]

"Overwhelming sadness, depression, and sense of hopelessness" leaps to mind.

What evidence do you have to conclude that?

Please do mindful that the issue became a matter of whether a particular evidence is sufficient. It is well known that depressed people can suicide, however, a considerable number of them never gets to attempt it. You need to present evidence that she was, for starters, depressed, and then, provide evidence that she was depressed enough to commit suicide. Also, remember that you can't use testimony as evidence.

 

[Magic Man]

It means, in part, providing them with a clear context in which they can grow in an intuitive understanding of their self-worth, in relationship with others and the world around them. It's necessary in the same way any other holistic nurturing is necessary to healthy development.

I'm not sure how teaching them myths as literal facts accomplishes that. I also don't see how only giving them one possible path for doing that helps. I would think to accomplish that, it would be best to offer them multiple paths to see which one helps them the most.

 

[Koldo]

Why would she be killing herself?

Because she wanted meet her father on heavens.

 

[sojourner]

It's occurred to me that part of why confirmation or "believer's baptism" usually happen around age 12 or 13 is because kids at that age are still able to be influenced

Somehow, I'm not surprised that that occurred to you, and it's a crock compared to your usually well-thought-out responses.
Confirmation or believer's baptism happens at that age, because that's generally the age when people begin to become accountable for themselves.

Plenty of parents force their kids to go to church.

Plenty of parents force their kids to eat balanced meals, go to bed at a decent hour, and not engage in pornography, too. But maybe we should just let kids decide for themselves what they do and don't want to participate in, because we might "violate their individual right to decide for themselves."

In either case, the first question that would pop into my head is "why the heck are they taking this kind of interest in a 9-year-old?"

That's the whole point!!! The child isn't going to be interested in joining unless you're interested. The church isn't going to be interested in a 9-year-old unless there's some sort of authentic relationship with you.

 

[Koldo]

Considering that the largest groups of Christians on the planet consider suicide to guarantee one's place in hell, then perhaps it isn't.

You need to read that sentence again. Suicide is not part of it.

 

[Me Myself]

That will give you an insight on her.
Do not confuse this insight, which is made of speculations, with knowledge.



I have no reason to trust your judgement because you are not her.

You think people really know themselves always on all or even most circumstances?

This is probably the different premise we have.

 

[sojourner]

On infant baptism:

"I think my newborn baby is so sinful and evil that God would be totally justified in torturing him forever if he died right now. To correct this, I'm going to have the sin ritually 'washed' from him, declare him a Christian from this day forward, and promise that I'll do my utmost to make sure he doesn't develop any beliefs that I consider heretical (knowing full well that he may have different thoughts on the matter as he grows up)."

Yes, what could anyone find wrong with that?

On infant baptism:

"I want to nurture my child in the knowledge and love of God, and provide a safe, spiritual context in which s/he can learn to be an individual-in-community, with which s/he can connect deeply and meaningfully, and from which s/he can draw strength in time of need and support in time of plenty. I want my child to be part of the same community which I am deeply involved in, and through which I derive a portion of my own identity. I want my child to be publicly acknowledged as a child of God, and to publicly give thanks To God for the gift of my child."

What could anyone find wrong with that?

I can guarantee you that your "scenario" isn't espoused by any legitimate Church.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

You need to read that sentence again. Suicide is not part of it.

Suicide is what she did. According to most Christian teaching, she was guaranteed not to see her father in heaven. According to no Christian teaching was she guaranteed to see her father in heaven. You can just as easily chock this up to teaching Christian doctrine poorly as you can Christian doctrine.

 

[idav]

Considering that the largest groups of Christians on the planet consider suicide to guarantee one's place in hell, then perhaps it isn't.

Yes, interestingly, I don't believe that suicide guaranteeing a place in hell is supported by scripture. That's just assumed. Same as age of culpability for children, there is no scripture that says kids don't sin until a certain age, so presumably a non-believing baby is hell bound according to scripture.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To be frank, I think that the part I bolded is likely something only an unbeliever, and particularly an atheist, would associate with baptism.

Why's that? It's the inescapable logical conclusion from the premises "unbaptized babies might end up in Hell" and "God is perfectly good and would never punish someone in a way they didn't deserve." Even though the first premise doesn't align with many Protestant beliefs, both are not only believed but considered unquestionably true by many mainstream Christians. It's a direct implication of the teachings of any denomination that preaches the necessity of infant baptism: that when babies are born, they may be so evil that torturing them forever is good and just.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

On infant baptism:

"I want to nurture my child in the knowledge and love of God, and provide a safe, spiritual context in which s/he can learn to be an individual-in-community, with which s/he can connect deeply and meaningfully, and from which s/he can draw strength in time of need and support in time of plenty. I want my child to be part of the same community which I am deeply involved in, and through which I derive a portion of my own identity. I want my child to be publicly acknowledged as a child of God, and to publicly give thanks To God for the gift of my child."

What could anyone find wrong with that?

I can guarantee you that your "scenario" isn't espoused by any legitimate Church.

The Catholic Church isn't legitimate?

 

[sojourner]

Stuff like Noah's flood? I remember that from my own "Children's Book of Bible Stories". They played up the cute animals and the rainbow and downplayed the gruesome death of nearly all of humanity... though even as a kid I realized that they had to have died somehow.

The point of the story isn't that "most of humanity died." The point of the story is that God saved the faithful remnant.

A while back, the Atheist Experience did an episode where two former Christian hosts talked about the songs they learned in church as kids and how freaky they seemed once they left Christianity. Both of them were very familiar with the song I linked to - apparently, it was popular at both their churches.

Huh. I remember singing this hymn as a small child. Didn't bother me a bit. Small children don't cognate the deep implications of what they hear. They take it at face value: "Oh. This is a song we sing at church." If they question the blood, and the myth is explained properly, they can begin to understand in a way that's appropriate for them.

 

[Curious George]

Suicide is what she did. According to most Christian teaching, she was guaranteed not to see her father in heaven. According to no Christian teaching was she guaranteed to see her father in heaven. You can just as easily chock this up to teaching Christian doctrine poorly as you can Christian doctrine.

This is just an example why any evidence condemning religious indoctrination as a whole fails. Very similar to one of the reasons Pascal's wager fails

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, we're not really supposed to teach our children "do the best you're capable of doing." We're supposed to teach them "if you can't do it perfectly, it's not worth doing at all?" Great! Welcome to the Great American Psychosis.

As I already explained, my point wasn't that we should stop kids from taking on commitments they choose fir themselves; it's that we shouldn't push kids into supposedly lifelong commitments knowing that they're going to change significantly as they grow.