Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[ChristineES]

I will also add ete is nno hush at all about critisising the pope's stances on things and many catholics I ve heard flat out dont believe in hell. Make of it whatever you will.

They still baptize their kids and are very happy when they are thus baptized.

I don't think it really causes any harm for most people. Maybe a few here and there might feel trapped within the Catholic Church if they were baptized as babies, but many of those who leave the faith just feel as though their parents just wasted their time or something similar. Some people who are very weak in their faith baptize their babies not because of any religious reason, but for tradition, as well.

But it's hard to know people's motives.

 

[Me Myself]

I don't think it really causes any harm for most people. Maybe a few here and there might feel trapped within the Catholic Church if they were baptized as babies, but many of those who leave the faith just feel as though their parents just wasted their time or something similar. Some people who are very weak in their faith baptize their babies not because of any religious reason, but for tradition, as well.

But it's hard to know people's motives.

We can never be sure of people's motives, but from my observation is simply a tradition and wanting the baby to be "part" of that community. That's it.

I have never in my life heard anyone in real life saying babies must be baptized so they dont suffer in hell.

 

[Curious George]

It's not the superstition that causes harm - it's the idea built into the ceremony that a non-Christian baby is deserving of eternal torment. Even if the ceremony has no effect at all, this isn't exactly a healthy mindset for a parent to have for their child.

I don't see how it's not healthy. It may be weird, it may even be crazy. And in the past, this belief could have been the starting point for atrocities such as baptizing and killing south American children before they could recant, but the belief itself doesn't harm, it is the irrational actions that play ought in unhealthy individuals that is the harm. A group of people can all believe that after death we will eat feces on another planet while elves use our toes as pin cushions. Weird beliefs don't really matter if we focus on actions. And actions are hardly worth griping if they are benign.

You really don't see your bias in this thread?

 

[Koldo]

Evidence then.

I certainly dont default on "people know why they do what they do and most of their evaluations of their emotions even in highly intense moments are always correct unless evidence suggests otherwise"

If you do, thats you.

You have no evidence to the contrary. There is only evidence that her reasons are the ones she stated.

 

[Me Myself]

You have no evidence to the contrary. There is only evidence that her reasons are the ones she stated.

No evidence for her statement to be true.

Again, you may default to "complete strangers alleged motives when on highly emotional sates are correct until evidenced otherwise" but that doesnt make it true.

We dont know her real motivations, just what she told others (which may also be what she told herself)

 

[Koldo]

No evidence for her statement to be true.

Again, you may default to "complete strangers alleged motives when on highly emotional sates are correct until evidenced otherwise" but that doesnt make it true.

We dont know her real motivations, just what she told others (which may also be what she told herself)

Her testimony is all one could possibly have as evidence for her reasons. And that is exactly we have.

 

[Me Myself]

Her testimony is all one could possibly have as evidence for her reasons. And that is exactly we have.

Exactly, so there is no way to really know her reasons.

 

[Me Myself]

Oh, you mean in general?

Well, I would want to hear a psychologists opinion on the subject. Specifically her psychologist if she had one.

If not, I could better know her motivations if I knew her and she had shared her stuff with me.

By a claim of a stranger on an internet link, I dont pretend to know anything of her inner workings.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would be surprised there arent more graphic: movies, videogames and national anthems to which they will be exposed to or either directly involved in by then.

Why would you expect that?

BTW: if you want a violent national anthem, check out the French one: La Marseillaise - translation

Like it or not, most catholics here dont do it for that.

As incoherent as it may be for you, its simply not the motivation.

I find it rather naive thqt you honestly believe that all catholics believe all current catholic teachings to be 100% revelation from God.

People believe what they want to believe about baptism. (I know, its crazy, but you know, human nature)

I understand that plenty of Catholics don't believe the teachings of the Church. My point is that when a parent claims to be Catholic but only pays lip-service to the Church's teachings, this sends a mixed message to their kids about the relative importance of appearance vs. substance.

Edit: teaching kids hypocrisy isn't much of an improvement over teaching them Hell.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We can never be sure of people's motives, but from my observation is simply a tradition and wanting the baby to be "part" of that community. That's it.

I have never in my life heard anyone in real life saying babies must be baptized so they dont suffer in hell.

Yes, lots of parents take a hypocritical approach when it comes to the role of religion in their children's upbringing: "oh, yes - I'll say all the right words, but don't expect me to follow them. I'll use the church as a backdrop for a family event, but don't expect me to follow what it teaches."

Again, this is less than ideal itself.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't see how it's not healthy. It may be weird, it may even be crazy. And in the past, this belief could have been the starting point for atrocities such as baptizing and killing south American children before they could recant, but the belief itself doesn't harm, it is the irrational actions that play ought in unhealthy individuals that is the harm. A group of people can all believe that after death we will eat feces on another planet while elves use our toes as pin cushions. Weird beliefs don't really matter if we focus on actions. And actions are hardly worth griping if they are benign.

You really don't see your bias in this thread?

Please explain how it's healthy for a parent to think their newborn baby is so evil it could rightly be tortured forever if God saw fit to do so. Do you think that such a belief might manifest itself in ways other than a silly ritual?

Edit: when my ex and I were trying to have kids (which didn't happen, thankfully), this is an issue that I thought a lot about. I ended up refusing to even attend my (hypothetical) child's baptism, since declaring through my presence that I agreed with the idea that my (hypothetical) baby wasa little ball of evil was too high a price of admission.

 

[Koldo]

Exactly, so there is no way to really know her reasons.

Why are you dismissing her testimony?
Is there any reason as to why you are doing this other than your own bias?

This is an unfair manner to deal with evidence. By your standards, no testimony can ever be considered true. I am glad you are not a judge.

 

[Koldo]

Oh, you mean in general?

Well, I would want to hear a psychologists opinion on the subject. Specifically her psychologist if she had one.

Why?
It would be the psychologist's testimony either way.
Why wouldn't you dismiss this testimony?

If not, I could better know her motivations if I knew her and she had shared her stuff with me.

By a claim of a stranger on an internet link, I dont pretend to know anything of her inner workings.

There was a suicide note.

What is the difference between a suicide note and she telling you why she was going to suicide? She could be lying either way, right?

 

[Curious George]

Please explain how it's healthy for a parent to think their newborn baby is so evil it could rightly be tortured forever if God saw fit to do so. Do you think that such a belief might manifest itself in ways other than a silly ritual?

Edit: when my ex and I were trying to have kids (which didn't happen, thankfully), this is an issue that I thought a lot about. I ended up refusing to even attend my (hypothetical) child's baptism, since declaring through my presence that I agreed with the idea that my (hypothetical) baby wasa little ball of evil was too high a price of admission.

My aim was to point out that the belief alone is not either healthy or unhealthy. I should have phrased that better.

 

[Falvlun]

Please explain how it's healthy for a parent to think their newborn baby is so evil it could rightly be tortured forever if God saw fit to do so. Do you think that such a belief might manifest itself in ways other than a silly ritual?

Edit: when my ex and I were trying to have kids (which didn't happen, thankfully), this is an issue that I thought a lot about. I ended up refusing to even attend my (hypothetical) child's baptism, since declaring through my presence that I agreed with the idea that my (hypothetical) baby wasa little ball of evil was too high a price of admission.

To be frank, I think that the part I bolded is likely something only an unbeliever, and particularly an atheist, would associate with baptism.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

To be frank, I think that the part I bolded is likely something only an unbeliever, and particularly an atheist, would associate with baptism.

Hmm, this sounds suspiciously like something only someone who's a little ball of evil would say.

 

[Falvlun]

Hmm, this sounds suspiciously like something only someone who's a little ball of evil would say.

My cover's blown!

 

[Me Myself]

Why?
It would be the psychologist's testimony either way.
Why wouldn't you dismiss this testimony?



There was a suicide note.

What is the difference between a suicide note and she telling you why she was going to suicide? She could be lying either way, right?

Because if you know someone for a good time, its likely you learn the differences between what s/he actually beleive and the bull#%^ stories s/he tells hirself.

A single note doesnt do that. A note lacks body language and tone and it is one single note. Not a following of a person and their situation for several days, weeks, months and a lifetime.

 

[Me Myself]

Why are you dismissing her testimony?
Is there any reason as to why you are doing this other than your own bias?

This is an unfair manner to deal with evidence. By your standards, no testimony can ever be considered true. I am glad you are not a judge.

No one single testimony should ever be enough to beat reasonable doubt, indeed o.o

I am glad you are not a judge.

 

[Curious George]

To be frank, I think that the part I bolded is likely something only an unbeliever, and particularly an atheist, would associate with baptism.

It is another case of using colorful language to try to appeal to emotion. The Catholic church has a history with aligning negative action with baptism. But their are also plenty of instances where the rite was exercised in a neutral or positive fashion. But brass tax: people have weird and crazy beliefs. To suggest that beliefs alone are harmful is incorrect. However, beliefs can lead to action or inaction which can be harmful. Some are making the case that religious beliefs are of this flavor when instilled in children at an early age.