Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[LuisDantas]

Regarding the suicide, I really don't know what either side is trying to get from it.

Yes, it appears that the kid's religious beliefs were a motivating factor.

No, this is not evidence that teaching kids religious beliefs are harmful, since it's unlikely this was the sole factor, since the vast majority of religious kids don't commit suicide, and since people commit suicide for a wide variety of reasons, which could very well encompass lack of religious beliefs as well.

Really? I can see not being certain, but lacking any notion of whether the belief in an afterlife where she would meet her father played a role is really pushing it IMO.

 

[Me Myself]

Why would she be lying?

Because humans lie all the time o.o to themselves and others.

I don't comprehend why it is so hard for you admit that a particular religious belief could have triggered ( on the presence of other factors ) a suicide.

You can use any belief as a factor for suicide. The important part is not the belief though, but the whole construction of the person and their emotional state and pallette, witth the obvious enviromental conditions (the loss of a father in this case)

 

[Koldo]

Because humans lie all the time o.o to themselves and others.

Then, should i assume you are lying right now too?

You can use any belief as a factor for suicide. The important part is not the belief though, but the whole construction of the person and their emotional state and pallette, witth the obvious enviromental conditions (the loss of a father in this case)

In her case, a religious belief was an important part to reach that end.
I do not deny that this belief alone is not enough.

 

[ZooGirl02]

Personally, I do not believe that raising your children to follow your religion is brainwashing. The Catholic Church teaches that parents must raise their children as Catholics. I don't believe that it is brainwashing but rather that it is proper moral and spiritual formation. Catholics believe that there is only one set of Truths as taught by God and that the Catholic Church teaches those truths. Therefore, it would be immoral to not teach your children the set of Truths as taught by God to the Catholic Church.

 

[Me Myself]

Then, should i assume you are lying right now too?

You should assume its possible, of course. Why would you trust someone who you never knew completely on any assertion?

In her case, a religious belief was an important part to reach that end.

You haven't proven this assumption.

 

[Koldo]

You should assume its possible, of course. Why would you trust someone who you never knew completely on any assertion?

It depends on the assertion and the circumstance overall.
If i see no reason to doubt your words, I will most certainly assume you to be speaking the truth ( according to what you regard as truth ).

You haven't proven this assumption.

"Proof is for mathematical theorems and alcoholic beverages."

 

[Falvlun]

Really? I can see not being certain, but lacking any notion of whether the belief in an afterlife where she would meet her father played a role is really pushing it IMO.

Did you even read my post? I pretty clearly stated that "Yes, it appears that the kid's religious beliefs were a motivating factor."

 

[Me Myself]

It depends on the assertion and the circumstance overall.
If i see no reason to doubt your words, I will most certainly assume you to be speaking the truth ( according to what you regard as truth ).



"Proof is for mathematical theorems and alcoholic beverages."

Evidence then.

I certainly dont default on "people know why they do what they do and most of their evaluations of their emotions even in highly intense moments are always correct unless evidence suggests otherwise"

If you do, thats you.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Johnny: I want to play football!
Dad: Ok, but you have to commit to playing it.
Johnny: I'll commit to it! I'll be super dedicated, Dad!
Dad: Are you sure? Are you positive you won't change your mind, ever?
Johnny: Um... well, technically, no. But I'll do my best!
Dad: Sorry, not good enough. No football for you.

The point being, of course, is that changing our minds is a normal and natural part of growing up, and that it's pretty unreasonable to expect anyone-- a child or an adult-- to be 100% sure of forever commitment before being able to commit to something. I would think that such an expectation that a child be absolutely sure would lead to an unhealthy inability to commit to anything.

Yes: it's unreasonable to expect children to make lifelong commitments. This supports my position, but by your tone, I get the impression that you think it refutes it somehow.

I was sure as sure could be that I'd be a Christian forever. Guess what? I changed. And that was a normal and healthy process. Why should my parents have restricted me from getting baptized? I was sure at the time, which is all anyone should require.

And best of all? There is absolutely no ramifications or lasting evidence of my baptism to plague me for being wrong. I can walk away from it, older and wiser, and realize that that was a different stage in my life.

BFFs aren't usually gonna last forever. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have them.

Was it you who decided to be baptized, or was it something your parents pushed you into?

 

[Falvlun]

Yes: it's unreasonable to expect children to make lifelong commitments. This supports my position, but by your tone, I get the impression that you think it refutes it somehow.

It seemed like it was you that was supporting life-long commitments, by your claim that kids shouldn't be allowed to commit to anything, unless they were in it for the long haul.

My position is that if kids want to commit to something, then parents should encourage that, despite the fact that they might end up changing their mind down the road.

Was it you who decided to be baptized, or was it something your parents pushed you into?

I was definitely gung-ho about it.

 

[idav]

Thing is, even without religion people are willing to make stuff up when it comes to death. Even an atheist is gonna create some sort of hope when it comes to death. Loved ones are even willing to go together regardless of what might be on the otherside.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It seemed like it was you that was supporting life-long commitments, by your claim that kids shouldn't be allowed to commit to anything, unless they were in it for the long haul.

Wow... you completely missed my point. I argued that forcing kids into lifelong commitments is a bad idea partly because they're so prone to change their minds as they grow and learn.

My position is that if kids want to commit to something, then parents should encourage that, despite the fact that they might end up changing their mind down the road.

This isn't really relevant to a thread about parents forcing things on their children. If it's the kid taking the lead role, then we're talking about a different animal.

I was definitely gung-ho about it.

Then it sounds like your case isn't one of the ones I was objecting to.

 

[Falvlun]

Wow... you completely missed my point. I argued that forcing kids into lifelong commitments is a bad idea partly because they're so prone to change their minds as they grow and learn.

This isn't really relevant to a thread about parents forcing things on their children. If it's the kid taking the lead role, then we're talking about a different animal.

This all stemmed from your response regarding whether you thought a 9 year old could choose to be baptized.

I think that's a fine age to explore, and definitely old enough for the child to express their own opinion on things, but a 9-year-old will change so much that I think it's a mistake to try to tie them to a particular path for the rest of their life.

I assumed we were operating under the same 9 year-old-choosing-to-be-baptized scenario.

So, do you think it's okay for parents to support their 9 year old's desire to be baptized, even though she might re-neg on her commitment later in life?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This all stemmed from your response regarding whether you thought a 9 year old could choose to be baptized.



I assumed we were operating under the same 9 year-old-choosing-to-be-baptized scenario.

So, do you think it's okay for parents to support their 9 year old's desire to be baptized, even though she might re-neg on her commitment later in life?

Seems like you really misinterpreted what I said. I said that we shouldn't tie kids to a particular path for the rest of their life. IOW:

- we shouldn't force kids at that age into making supposedly lifelong decisions.
- we shouldn't hold kids to commitments and oaths they made when they were too young to really understand them.

I thought I was clear enough, but apparently I wasn't.

Is there anything in this that you actually object to?

Edit: it's one thing if a child decides for herself that her friend is her "BFF", even if the parents realize that "forever" isn't actually forever. It's a completely different thing for a parent to insist that a friend pick a BFF (thereby implying that the child is ready to make this commitment) and then shrug it off when the friends aren't friends any more. The first scenario is just allowing a child to grow up; the second sends a very strange mixed message... and I think it's analogous to the situation when parents insist that a child make religious commitments at an early age.

 

[Falvlun]

Seems like you really misinterpreted what I said. I said that we shouldn't tie kids to a particular path for the rest of their life. IOW:

- we shouldn't force kids at that age into making supposedly lifelong decisions.

Ok, so 9 year olds choosing to be baptized are fine.

- we shouldn't hold kids to commitments and oaths they made when they were too young to really understand them.

I don't think anyone really does this. I mean, I really don't know anyone who's been hunted down and dragged back into church because they got baptized and then decided to go a different route.

I thought I was clear enough, but apparently I wasn't.

Is there anything in this that you actually object to?

It really did appear to me that you objected to children choosing to make religious commitments. But if that's not the case, then I'm good.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok, so 9 year olds choosing to be baptized are fine.

I'd have major misgivings about any church that would want a 9-year-old child as a member by himself or herself, but I can see a small number of scenarios where it would probably be okay.

It's occurred to me that part of why confirmation or "believer's baptism" usually happen around age 12 or 13 is because kids at that age are still able to be influenced... sort of like how if a person doesn't take up smoking by age 18, the odds are ridiculously low that he'll ever take it up.

I don't think anyone really does this. I mean, I really don't know anyone who's been hunted down and dragged back into church because they got baptized and then decided to go a different route.

Plenty of parents force their kids to go to church. It might not be directly because the child was baptized, but the baptism and the forcing can be both manifestations of the same desire to indoctrinate their child into a particular religion.

It really did appear to me that you objected to children choosing to make religious commitments. But if that's not the case, then I'm good.

I think it really depends on the specifics. A child that young could be taken advantage of in any number of ways, so that would make me cautious. If my (hypothetical) 9-year-old child came home and said he wanted to join the church down the street, I'd probably have many of the same concerns and questions I'd have if he told me that he wanted to hang out after school every day with the 40-year-old neighbour whose basement is filled with arcade games.

In either case, the first question that would pop into my head is "why the heck are they taking this kind of interest in a 9-year-old?" Whether I'd object would depend on the answer I find to that question.

 

[LuisDantas]

Did you even read my post? I pretty clearly stated that "Yes, it appears that the kid's religious beliefs were a motivating factor."

I did. And it is not like it could be avoided. I just don't feel confortable with attempts at seeing a clearly stated main motivation as being something else.

 

[LuisDantas]

(...) Even an atheist is gonna create some sort of hope when it comes to death. (...)

Excuse me?

Atheists tend to place their hopes in the life that comes before death, you know. We are funny like that.

 

[ChristineES]

Wow... you completely missed my point. I argued that forcing kids into lifelong commitments is a bad idea partly because they're so prone to change their minds as they grow and learn.


This isn't really relevant to a thread about parents forcing things on their children. If it's the kid taking the lead role, then we're talking about a different animal.


Then it sounds like your case isn't one of the ones I was objecting to.

Even if a child is baptized at age nine, he or she will still be able to walk away from the faith if they choose to. Being baptized doesn't mean that a person is locked into the faith.

 

[ChristineES]

Regarding the suicide, I really don't know what either side is trying to get from it.

Yes, it appears that the kid's religious beliefs were a motivating factor.

No, this is not evidence that teaching kids religious beliefs are harmful, since it's unlikely this was the sole factor, since the vast majority of religious kids don't commit suicide, and since people commit suicide for a wide variety of reasons, which could very well encompass lack of religious beliefs as well.

I am not 100% convinced that her beliefs had much to do with it. It seemed to have more to do with her grief over losing her father. And I agree with the latter part of your post- people commit suicide for many different reasons.

And I also agree why this was even brought up in the first place and I wonder at myself for even commenting on it. I have no idea what was on that poor girl's mind. I felt sad when I read it. And I am sorry I even made any comments on it at all, because I was forgetting the tragedy of a young girl who took her own life. :sorry1: