Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[Curious George]

Actually, I think the problem in this thread has more to do with people jumping to the conclusion that when someone says "harmful religious beliefs are harmful", they really mean "all religious beliefs are harmful."

Well granted those opposing "indoctrination" are all over the place so it is hard for me to pin down any direct focus. I just went with the most encompassing posters:

People who suggested that it is wrong to tell your very young child God is real, or people that suggested simple religious activities involving young children such as baptism are immoral.

The common thread I see with many posts is an opposition to parents being able to choose direct or guide their child's religious beliefs at an early age. I hardly see any problem with such a practice in general. When people get more specific and talk about methodologies of some parents i.e. threats of banishment, beating, or emotional abuse equivalent to that which a rape victim suffers, they are not referring to religion at all. They are then referring to specific types of indoctrination. And those specific methodologies are and should be prevented through other means. So if you threaten your kid with banishment because they didn't eat all their peas then you are abusive. If you teach your kid not to swear by inflicting emotional abuse then you are abusive. If you beat your child because they don't want to take a bath you are abusive. The attachment of religion to any of these processes is superfluous.

If however we talk about an abstract harm such as a reduction of religious freedom by instilling a cultural bias- then I suggest that the harm is not consequential to all religious "indoctrination" as "religious indoctrination" has been described. Thus either people are failing to accurately describe "religious indoctrination" or they should focus on those specific instances of religious indoctrination, instead of the blanket assertions that teaching young children religious belief as fact is wrong.

 

[ChristineES]

I can't speak of all practices of all faiths, of course, but the types of things I see people of my faith teach is: 1. How to pray, 2. Learning various Bible stories via Sunday School or Bible study, 3. The words to various religious songs (Like Jesus Loves Me). I don't see parents threatening their small children with hell, at least not very often (I've actually never heard it but I have heard about it). Pretty mild stuff.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well granted those opposing "indoctrination" are all over the place so it is hard for me to pin down any direct focus.

Likewise, it's sometimes hard to tell the difference between posters who are describing actual benign practices and those who are using euphemisms to make objectionable practices seem benign.

I just went with the most encompassing posters:

People who suggested that it is wrong to tell your very young child God is real, or people that suggested simple religious activities involving young children such as baptism are immoral.

On infant baptism:

"I think my newborn baby is so sinful and evil that God would be totally justified in torturing him forever if he died right now. To correct this, I'm going to have the sin ritually 'washed' from him, declare him a Christian from this day forward, and promise that I'll do my utmost to make sure he doesn't develop any beliefs that I consider heretical (knowing full well that he may have different thoughts on the matter as he grows up)."

Yes, what could anyone find wrong with that?

 

[Me Myself]

I can't speak of all practices of all faiths, of course, but the types of things I see people of my faith teach is: 1. How to pray, 2. Learning various Bible stories via Sunday School or Bible study, 3. The words to various religious songs (Like Jesus Loves Me). I don't see parents threatening their small children with hell, at least not very often (I've actually never heard it but I have heard about it). Pretty mild stuff.

Pretty much.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I can't speak of all practices of all faiths, of course, but the types of things I see people of my faith teach is: 1. How to pray, 2. Learning various Bible stories via Sunday School or Bible study,

Stuff like Noah's flood? I remember that from my own "Children's Book of Bible Stories". They played up the cute animals and the rainbow and downplayed the gruesome death of nearly all of humanity... though even as a kid I realized that they had to have died somehow.

3. The words to various religious songs (Like Jesus Loves Me).

And cheery songs like this?

[youtube]h9oW91Iv8D8[/youtube]
Are You Washed in the Blood? - YouTube

A while back, the Atheist Experience did an episode where two former Christian hosts talked about the songs they learned in church as kids and how freaky they seemed once they left Christianity. Both of them were very familiar with the song I linked to - apparently, it was popular at both their churches.

I don't see parents threatening their small children with hell, at least not very often (I've actually never heard it but I have heard about it). Pretty mild stuff.

How about parents reassuring their kids that they'll go to Heaven instead of Hell because they're good Christians? Do you ever hear that?

 

[Curious George]

Likewise, it's sometimes hard to tell the difference between posters who are describing actual benign practices and those who are using euphemisms to make objectionable practices seem benign.




On infant baptism:

"I think my newborn baby is so sinful and evil that God would be totally justified in torturing him forever if he died right now. To correct this, I'm going to have the sin ritually 'washed' from him, declare him a Christian from this day forward, and promise that I'll do my utmost to make sure he doesn't develop any beliefs that I consider heretical (knowing full well that he may have different thoughts on the matter as he grows up)."

Yes, what could anyone find wrong with that?

or "I am going to let that dude dip my baby in water (or sprinkle some on his/her head) because I believe that it will help my baby.

Not so malicious then, I hope. Some people are superstitious. How does that superstition cause harm. oh wait... it doesn't. You need other things before you can even get to harm. Yet somehow, it is bad or immoral? Sorry, if that is your argument, it just doesn't work.

 

[Me Myself]

Ehm, they eat dead animals and they know it, what possibly could be the problem with them singing in the blood of the lamb? :areyoucra

 

[Curious George]

Likewise, it's sometimes hard to tell the difference between posters who are describing actual benign practices and those who are using euphemisms to make objectionable practices seem benign.

HAH! I met you with the religious indoctrination phrase. I am even happy to meet you with the brainwashing phrase. I am talking about possible methodologies that are involved, and the poor logic involved in making sweeping generalizations.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

or "I am going to let that dude dip my baby in water (or sprinkle some on his/her head) because I believe that it will help my baby.

Not so malicious then, I hope. Some people are superstitious. How does that superstition cause harm. oh wait... it doesn't. You need other things before you can even get to harm. Yet somehow, it is bad or immoral? Sorry, if that is your argument, it just doesn't work.

It's not the superstition that causes harm - it's the idea built into the ceremony that a non-Christian baby is deserving of eternal torment. Even if the ceremony has no effect at all, this isn't exactly a healthy mindset for a parent to have for their child.

 

[ChristineES]

Stuff like Noah's flood? I remember that from my own "Children's Book of Bible Stories". They played up the cute animals and the rainbow and downplayed the gruesome death of nearly all of humanity... though even as a kid I realized that they had to have died somehow.


And cheery songs like this?

[youtube]h9oW91Iv8D8[/youtube]
Are You Washed in the Blood? - YouTube

A while back, the Atheist Experience did an episode where two former Christian hosts talked about the songs they learned in church as kids and how freaky they seemed once they left Christianity. Both of them were very familiar with the song I linked to - apparently, it was popular at both their churches.


How about parents reassuring their kids that they'll go to Heaven instead of Hell because they're good Christians? Do you ever hear that?

Give me a flipping break, for crying out loud!!!! How about the story of Ruth and Naomi or some of the Psalms? How about the song "In the Sweet By and By" or the one I mentioned "Jesus Loves Me"? Why do you guys take innocent statements and give answers like this?

 

[Me Myself]

It's not the superstition that causes harm - it's the idea built into the ceremony that a non-Christian baby is deserving of eternal torment. Even if the ceremony has no effect at all, this isn't exactly a healthy mindset for a parent to have for their child.

Its not built in it. I ve heard no one saying a baby without such ritual will go to eternal torment. (Outside of the internet)

Keep in mind catholicism is over ninety percent here.

 

[ChristineES]

Its not built in it. I ve heard no one saying a baby without such ritual will go to eternal torment. (Outside of the internet)

Keep in mind catholicism is over ninety percent here.

Same here. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that there are going to be babies in hell, even the most hell-believing preachers. I certainly don't believe that. And a lot of people here already know that I don't believe in any literal hell, anyway.

And I like the song "Are You Washed in the Blood?" It's actually a very positive song if you know that the blood they speak of isn't literal blood.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Its not built in it. I ve heard no one saying a baby without such ritual will go to eternal torment. (Outside of the internet)

Keep in mind catholicism is over ninety percent here.

You have a country of 90% Catholics where nobody believes in the necessity of baptism? I find that hard to believe.

 

[Me Myself]

You have a country of 90% Catholics where nobody believes in the necessity of baptism? I find that hard to believe.

They dont believe its a "necessity so that you dont go to hell"

Its simply what you do, that's all.

Its a custom. People rarely question customs a lot, they just accept they serve to bond us in community.

 

[ChristineES]

You have a country of 90% Catholics where nobody believes in the necessity of baptism? I find that hard to believe.

I don't know about Catholics, but other Christian denominations believe that Baptism is important but if someone can't do it doesn't mean they're "hell bound" or anything. There might be a few.

 

[Me Myself]

Same here. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that there are going to be babies in hell, even the most hell-believing preachers. I certainly don't believe that. And a lot of people here already know that I don't believe in any literal hell, anyway.

And I like the song "Are You Washed in the Blood?" It's actually a very positive song if you know that the blood they speak of isn't literal blood.

And I must emphasize:

Unless you are a veg, I dont get how could you possibly say it is so bad to wash yourself in the blood of the lamb but eating the corpse is okey dokey.

Seriously, that's one weird spook :areyoucra

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Same here. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that there are going to be babies in hell, even the most hell-believing preachers. I certainly don't believe that. And a lot of people here already know that I don't believe in any literal hell, anyway.

The official position of the Catholic Church on the issue is (paraphrased): "we hope there's a way for unbaptized babies to be saved, but you'd better baptize them just in case there isn't." IOW, they consider sending babies to Hell not to necessarily be in conflict with God's nature.

And I like the song "Are You Washed in the Blood?" It's actually a very positive song if you know that the blood they speak of isn't literal blood.

No, the blood is a metaphor for literally torturing an innocent man to death. Much nicer.

 

[Me Myself]

No, the blood is a metaphor for literally torturing an innocent man to death. Much nicer.

I would be surprised there arent more graphic: movies, videogames and national anthems to which they will be exposed to or either directly involved in by then.

The official position of the Catholic Church on the issue is (paraphrased): "we hope there's a way for unbaptized babies to be saved, but you'd better baptize them just in case there isn't." IOW, they consider sending babies to Hell not to necessarily be in conflict with God's nature.

Like it or not, most catholics here dont do it for that.

As incoherent as it may be for you, its simply not the motivation.

I find it rather naive thqt you honestly believe that all catholics believe all current catholic teachings to be 100% revelation from God.

People believe what they want to believe about baptism. (I know, its crazy, but you know, human nature)

 

[ChristineES]

The official position of the Catholic Church on the issue is (paraphrased): "we hope there's a way for unbaptized babies to be saved, but you'd better baptize them just in case there isn't." IOW, they consider sending babies to Hell not to necessarily be in conflict with God's nature.


No, the blood is a metaphor for literally torturing an innocent man to death. Much nicer.

It's actually about love. About someone who loved us enough to die for us. But I am expecting too much for people outside of the faith to truly understand it. But if that's how you see it, there's nothing else I can say about it. Edited to add: I am not here to defend my faith or my religion. I believe in it and I follow it.

 

[Me Myself]

I will also add ete is nno hush at all about critisising the pope's stances on things and many catholics I ve heard flat out dont believe in hell. Make of it whatever you will.

They still baptize their kids and are very happy when they are thus baptized.