Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[Falvlun]

Do you think such parent only baptize their kids just in case or they feel baptism is required. They doing pascals wager baptisms now?

Not at all.

Penguin is arguing that parents who get their child baptized have an unhealthy view towards their child-- that they believe their child is so evil that it deserves to go to hell.

I am saying that such a view of their children is highly unlikely-- even if they do believe that without baptism, their child will go to hell.

But, as for other reasons for baptizing one's child:
1. Tradition, culturally or religiously.
2. Introducing or inducting their child into their religious community.
3. As an expression of their own faith.
4. Belief that baptism is part of becoming a Christian. (Most Protestant denominations, for instance, don't believe that infants go to hell if they aren't baptized, but they will still baptize for other religious reasons.)

 

[Magic Man]

So is denying a child an appropriate spiritual dimension to their upbringing.

From what you described "spiritual formation" as, that could be accomplished through sports or many other avenues, and there's no need to force them down one path because you think it's the right one for them.

 

[Koldo]

No, I mean that "I will meet my father in heaven when I kill myself" is not within the scope of Christian teaching.

And so what?

 

[Koldo]

The fact that she committed suicide.

That's evidence for me too though.

 

[sojourner]

I'm not sure how teaching them myths as literal facts accomplishes that.

I didn't say it did.

I also don't see how only giving them one possible path for doing that helps.

Mixing metaphors never provides clarity. Small children are incapable of weighing options. Older children developmentally need the identity of cultural context.

 

[sojourner]

Because she wanted meet her father on heavens.

I'd like to see my grandparents, too. But I'm not committing suicide. Why? Because I'm mentally-balanced. Mentally-balanced people don't commit suicide. Mentally-unbalanced people do.

 

[idav]

We have a fundamental disagreement then. Me and many people including psychologists will tell you that often times people lie to themselves. Sure, they may know it deep inside so to say, but consciously, they ignore a. Lot of crucial things.

I agree with both, sure they reason things out but at the same time people lie to themselves. I would think anyone on the edge of death is going to have doubts about ever waking up again. One can hope to see loved ones but there would be too much doubt for that to be the motivating factor to join them, especially from an individual with depression and various other psychological issues.

 

[Koldo]

We have a fundamental disagreement then. Me and many people including psychologists will tell you that often times people lie to themselves. Sure, they may know it deep inside so to say, but consciously, they ignore a. Lot of crucial things.

A disagreement on what specifically?
That people best know their own motivations themselves?
Do you think you could know her reasoning better than herself?

Empathy is a normal reaction in a psychologically healthy human being. Whether is person conscious tries to "give up" on empathy is unlikely to completely shut down his empathic capabilities.

In any case, there is a difference between trying to figure out what is behind a persons reasoning by being empathic and by taking literally and at face value everytng they say about themselves.

If you have anything at all to cast doubt on what she said, please do bring it up. Because i am not taking it at face value. I am evaluating everything there is to evaluate on the table.

 

[sojourner]

Why's that? It's the inescapable logical conclusion from the premises "unbaptized babies might end up in Hell" and "God is perfectly good and would never punish someone in a way they didn't deserve." Even though the first premise doesn't align with many Protestant beliefs, both are not only believed but considered unquestionably true by many mainstream Christians. It's a direct implication of the teachings of any denomination that preaches the necessity of infant baptism: that when babies are born, they may be so evil that torturing them forever is good and just.

Baptism isn't a "backstage pass to heaven." Baptism is nothing more than "an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace." Therefore, one who is baptized is no more "deserving" of heaven than one who is not. heaven isn't a "reward." It's a gift.

 

[Magic Man]

I didn't say it did.

But that's what we're talking about, so if you weren't referring to that, then what's your point?

Mixing metaphors never provides clarity. Small children are incapable of weighing options. Older children developmentally need the identity of cultural context.

And yet I still don't see a good reason for you choosing the spiritual path for them, rather than letting them find it themselves.

 

[Koldo]

This is a generalization. It could be in the scope of some Christian teaching.

Actually, as he worded it, I am not aware of any denomination that believes in that.

With a tad bit of change though, there are some who most certainly do: "I will meet my father in heaven even if I kill myself".

Which on practice may have the same effect though.

 

[sojourner]

The Catholic Church isn't legitimate?

The Catholic church doesn't teach what you said.

 

[sojourner]

As I already explained, my point wasn't that we should stop kids from taking on commitments they choose fir themselves; it's that we shouldn't push kids into supposedly lifelong commitments knowing that they're going to change significantly as they grow.

How is baptism a "lifelong commitment?" It's an acknowledgement of God's grace.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I said what I said. Nothing less, nothing more.

It couldn't matter less how you phrased it. What matters is the logic of your argument. First, there really isn't any. It's a fallacious appeal to emotion and easily countered simply by noting that research indicates religion is at best a serious and effective check against suicide and at worst tends to decrease male suicides and not really effect female. Second, to the extent your example shows anything it shows that when you are taught Christian doctrine poorly bad things happen just as much as when you aren't taught it at all (combined with the first, not teaching it at all is worse than teaching it). What we can logically conclude is that this girl acted in a way that is inconsistent with Christian doctrine and, according to most Christian doctrines, is incompatible with Christian faith.

I never said that suicide as a mean to reach heavens is a christian teaching.

Again, couldn't matter less. Your example either is completely irrelevant or it matters because this person believed something about religion that shows the harms of children being taught religious doctrine. In this case, to the extent it does show this it equally shows the harms of teaching improper doctrine. This isn't consistent with Christian doctrine and contradicts the Christianities most adhere to.

However, isn't it a christian teaching that good people will go to heaven?

"Good" is defined in a Christian context. According to the largest group of Christians in existence, suicide is basically spitting on god and god's gifts. It is the ultimate measure of hatred of god. Now, I think this is ridiculous, personally, but then I'm not Christian and I spend most of my time at least borderline suicidal so I'm not one to talk. The point is that whatever logic is behind this example, which is about as supportable as arguing smoking is healthy because you know someone who lived to be 100 and smoked a pack a day, is negated if (as is the case) the harmful train of thought that lead to the action of suicide was just as inconsistent with religious thought as it is non-religious. In point of fact, while it is meaningless within the framework of a non-religious worldview, it is contradictory to some religious worldviews as these teach that it is possible to get into heaven but not via suicide which will guarantee that one doesn't.

I am not saying that is a christian teaching on every denomination, just so you know.

I didn't say you were.

 

[idav]

Not at all.

Penguin is arguing that parents who get their child baptized have an unhealthy view towards their child-- that they believe their child is so evil that it deserves to go to hell.

I am saying that such a view of their children is highly unlikely-- even if they do believe that without baptism, their child will go to hell.

But, as for other reasons for baptizing one's child:
1. Tradition, culturally or religiously.
2. Introducing or inducting their child into their religious community.
3. As an expression of their own faith.
4. Belief that baptism is part of becoming a Christian. (Most Protestant denominations, for instance, don't believe that infants go to hell if they aren't baptized, but they will still baptize for other religious reasons.)

I know the reasons for making baptism required, (I personally don't feel it a requirement) and requiring it means that anyone not baptized is falling short of said requirements.

It also depends on how the denomination views original sin (I'm not an advocate of saying humans are born evil). Most Christians believe that humans need/require saving, it is just a matter of how this saving is to take place and what the requirements are. Any requirement to be saved is looking at humans, including babies, as less than worthy.

 

[Koldo]

I'd like to see my grandparents, too. But I'm not committing suicide. Why? Because I'm mentally-balanced. Mentally-balanced people don't commit suicide. Mentally-unbalanced people do.

I have never said that upholding that belief is sufficient in itself to commit suicide. Do not misrepresent what i said.

 

[sojourner]

Often times people are encouraged to not doubt there faith or else.

More often, people are encouraged to question, to expand, and to grow.

 

[Me Myself]

A disagreement on what specifically?
That people best know their own motivations themselves?

Yes, precisely that.

Do you think you could know her reasoning better than herself?

Maybe, and not only me.

Do you have close friends with which you can spot when they are lying to themselves?

I do.

 

[sojourner]

Well good for them, and here I thought their god was mean. Denominations must think baptism is very important if they feel that baptism is a requirement. Which would mean that people have to meet requirements to get to heaven.

Grace isn't a requirement. It's an undeserved gift.

 

[sojourner]

Do you think such parent only baptize their kids just in case or they feel baptism is required. They doing pascals wager baptisms now?

No. Most parents baptize their children as a ritual way of acknowledging God at work in them.