Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[Koldo]

It couldn't matter less how you phrased it. What matters is the logic of your argument. First, there really isn't any. It's a fallacious appeal to emotion and easily countered simply by noting that research indicates religion is at best a serious and effective check against suicide and at worst tends to decrease male suicides and not really effect female. Second, to the extent your example shows anything it shows that when you are taught Christian doctrine poorly bad things happen just as much as when you aren't taught it at all (combined with the first, not teaching it at all is worse than teaching it). What we can logically conclude is that this girl acted in a way that is inconsistent with Christian doctrine and, according to most Christian doctrines, is incompatible with Christian faith.

Again, couldn't matter less. Your example either is completely irrelevant or it matters because this person believed something about religion that shows the harms of children being taught religious doctrine. In this case, to the extent it does show this it equally shows the harms of teaching improper doctrine. This isn't consistent with Christian doctrine and contradicts the Christianities most adhere to.


"Good" is defined in a Christian context. According to the largest group of Christians in existence, suicide is basically spitting on god and god's gifts. It is the ultimate measure of hatred of god. Now, I think this is ridiculous, personally, but then I'm not Christian and I spend most of my time at least borderline suicidal so I'm not one to talk. The point is that whatever logic is behind this example, which is about as supportable as arguing smoking is healthy because you know someone who lived to be 100 and smoked a pack a day, is negated if (as is the case) the harmful train of thought that lead to the action of suicide was just as inconsistent with religious thought as it is non-religious. In point of fact, while it is meaningless within the framework of a non-religious worldview, it is contradictory to some religious worldviews as these teach that it is possible to get into heaven but not via suicide which will guarantee that one doesn't.

I didn't say you were.

What IS my argument?
You are grasping at straws.

 

[Me Myself]

No. Most parents baptize their children as a ritual way of acknowledging God at work in them.

This is what I ve seen.

Is anyone here presenting any evidence that all or most baptism happens because parents believe their kids will go to hell otherwise?

 

[idav]

Grace isn't a requirement. It's an undeserved gift.

The view that it is undeserved is part of the problem. Undeserved means babies are missing something until they become Christian.

 

[sojourner]

Oh no. Let's ignore it because we are so extremely biased that we can not accept that a religious belief might have corroborated with her depression to the point she has actually gone through with it. We can't stand that!

It wasn't the belief that caused her to commit suicide. It was the unmitigated grief and feeling of hopelessness. Had she not been emotionally overwhelmed, she likely wouldn't have committed suicide.

 

[sojourner]

The reader can literally understand anything at all from that quote.
Different readers will have completely different interpretations when applied to any actual situation. That is why it is vague.

Yup. There are many ways in which a spiritual context can be legitimately established and understood, any one of which is capable of doing the trick. But the term "vague" is incorrect. The term "multivalent" is much better.

 

[Koldo]

Yes, precisely that.

Then who else would know better about them?

Maybe, and not only me.

Do you have close friends with which you can spot when they are lying to themselves?

I do.

Yes, and I can spot they know that too.

 

[sojourner]

Do have the verse that says suicide lands you in hell?

Don't have to. Official religious teaching isn't confined to the sola scriptura heresy.

 

[Me Myself]

Oh no. Let's ignore it because we are so extremely biased that we can not accept that a religious belief might have corroborated with her depression to the point she has actually gone through with it. We can't stand that!

Any belief can be used as building block to suicide when there is a bad emotional reality and bad tools to deal with it.

I dont see why this case given that the woman was correct about her motivations, would bring anything special to the table.

 

[sojourner]

This is a generalization. It could be in the scope of some Christian teaching.

'K.

Provide the source.

 

[Koldo]

It wasn't the belief that caused her to commit suicide. It was the unmitigated grief and feeling of hopelessness. Had she not been emotionally overwhelmed, she likely wouldn't have committed suicide.

What evidence do you have to support this?

 

[Koldo]

Yup. There are many ways in which a spiritual context can be legitimately established and understood, any one of which is capable of doing the trick. But the term "vague" is incorrect. The term "multivalent" is much better.

It is not just multivalent, because even opposites can be understood from that quote.

 

[sojourner]

From what you described "spiritual formation" as, that could be accomplished through sports or many other avenues, and there's no need to force them down one path because you think it's the right one for them.

Of course there are lots of avenues!! But small children are cognitively incapable of making such varied choices. Therefore, good choices are made for them, until they become able to choose for themselves.

 

[idav]

No. Most parents baptize their children as a ritual way of acknowledging God at work in them.

Really? I'd figure that parents baptize their children into religions they believe in. I do know that there are a lot more religious atheists but I don't think those are the type of parents to do just a ritualistic baptism for their child.

 

[sojourner]

And so what?

"Religious belief" was not the cause of her suicide.

 

[Me Myself]

Then who else would know better about them?

Generally different people know different parts of the whole picture on this circumstances. I see that you would like an eassy answer, but no such luck. Reality and more even, psychological reality is more complicaed than that.

If she never talked to anyone, she only had her version of her motivations.

Yes, and I can spot they know that too.

Generally after they made their mistakes and/or after talking to various other friends that corroborate what was said.

 

[Curious George]

Baptism isn't a "backstage pass to heaven." Baptism is nothing more than "an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace." Therefore, one who is baptized is no more "deserving" of heaven than one who is not. heaven isn't a "reward." It's a gift.

I believe many Catholics teach that baptism cleanses the fact that people are born in sin. Before the age of culpability (7 or 8) any child will not go to hell or heaven if they die before this age. However if they are baptized, they will go to heaven. Limbo was one explanation offered, other believe in reincarnation. But I do not believe there are any official doctrines that explain what happens. So some could very easily believe hell happens.

 

[Koldo]

Don't have to. Official religious teaching isn't confined to the sola scriptura heresy.

Because obviously protestants are not christians.

 

[Me Myself]

Because obviously protestants are not christians.

Because obviously there is one single way to interpret scripture

 

[sojourner]

But that's what we're talking about, so if you weren't referring to that, then what's your point?

Gee! And all this time I though we were talking about parents teaching children to follow the religious path they, themselves, follow.

And yet I still don't see a good reason for you choosing the spiritual path for them, rather than letting them find it themselves.

Mixing metaphors never provides clarity. Small children are incapable of weighing options.
Small children need the context of a single mythic construct, from which they can later extrapolate generalizations about themselves and the world around them. Then, if they can find a more suitable mythic construct, they can adopt it.

 

[Magic Man]

Of course there are lots of avenues!! But small children are cognitively incapable of making such varied choices. Therefore, good choices are made for them, until they become able to choose for themselves.

Why? Why would you make such a huge decision for them? Why not wait until they can make their own decision?