Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[Koldo]

Pretty sure I have met people who do not believe in hell, but do believe in heaven and call themselves Christian.

Ah, yes. Indeed.

 

[Koldo]

The post that linked the article upheld the reason for suicide as "religious belief."

Because it was essential to this particular suicide.

 

[sojourner]

Exactly, which means that in the vast majority of cases, they're teaching their children their religious beliefs as literal fact.

I doubt that. Bring your statistics, if you believe it to be true.

Then they don't need religion at all, so why choose one particular set of myths for them?

That doesn't follow from what I said.

You say they can find a more suitable one later, but when you indoctrinate them in your particular one, that means they'll have a very hard time breaking free of that one to find another better one.

I didn't mention "indoctrination" as part of the process.

 

[sojourner]

Correct, the religious belief that she would meet her dad in heaven is what caused the suicide (even if there were other factors, too).

Incorrect. Her overwhelming emotional state caused her to act -- not the belief itself.

 

[Koldo]

Then make a new thread or drop the argument

Its another subject. I am sure there have been suicides where religious beleifs were used as building blocks for rationals for the action, i just wont pretend to know what is on e mind of a stranger.

You do want to pretend to know.

Thats subject for another thread.

No need to open a new topic.
I am cutting off some branches.

I am pretending to know what is on the mind of a stranger based on what she said. Yes, indeed. And you are not doing the same because of your bias.

 

[Me Myself]

No need to open a new topic.
I am cutting off some branches.

I am pretending to know what is on the mind of a stranger based on what she said. Yes, indeed. And you are not doing the same because of your bias.

You are pretending to know my motivations?

Which specific bias do you have in mind that motivates me without my acknowledgement or against my claims?

 

[sojourner]

Tell that to the Jews who were deemed to be Christian and therefore under the jurisdiction of the Inquisition, who were executed for the sin of "judaizing"... all of the testimony of a household servant who claimed he or she secretly baptized the person as a baby.

What in the world do overzealous religious reactions have to do with grace? Or with a lifelong commitment?

 

[Koldo]

Had she not been emotionally overwhelmed, she likely wouldn't have committed suicide.

People who aren't overwhelmed in some way don't commit suicide.

You still need to show that being overwhelmed emotionally was sufficient for that suicide to happen.

 

[sojourner]

If it isn't in scripture, how do we know suicide is wrong (besides common sense). I know most religions do not condone suicide but I've never seen anything official, I don't know where they are pulling that from. Where is the official teachings on suicide coming from?

Probably from an extrapolation of suicide as a form of murder.

 

[sojourner]

How so?
The 'I will meet my father on heaven' is still a religious belief.

yeah, but that belief didn't force her to kill herself.

 

[sojourner]

What the church teaches changes from pope to pope. This week same sex marriage is ok.

The church teaches original sin so humans are born into a sinful nature. That means babies too.

Original sin, though, doesn't have anything to do with the disposition of innocents upon their death.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

It does not. My arguments are against your reasons to dismiss that suicide as being influenced majorly by a religious belief

Great. In general, religiosity is a major influence on suicidal behaviors and attitudes towards suicide. It tends to decrease suicidal behaviors and contribute to negative attitudes of suicide (a mitigating factor not only in one's own risk of suicide but also of others).

 

[sojourner]

Because it was essential to this particular suicide.

Because it was the context for the suicide. There's a big difference.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Things on the outside look different on the inside.

The vast majority of Christians simply won't and don't view their infant as a tiny ball of evil, despite that following (perhaps) from some of their other beliefs.

It truly takes someone outside of the religion-- like an atheist-- to make such a a connection, and particularly with such objectionable wording.

Hence, your contention that the above is not a healthy view for parents to have of their children is pretty much a made-up scenario: Parents, including Christian parents who choose to baptise their children, usually won't have such a view.

Oh, I agree. Most Christian parents don't think this way. Many compartmentalize their beliefs or simply fail to give much thought to the teachings of their church. I can't count the number of Christians I know in real life who never even read the Bible. They get their cracker on Sunday, pray occasionally, do rituals like baptisms, confirmations, and weddings at the appropriate times, and decide that's enough.

EDIT:
And also, as others have noted, "saving infants from hell" likely isn't the biggest motivating factor for most parents getting their child baptized. And even if it was, it could be argued that they were therefore showing their child such love that they wanted to save it from that fate-- after all, they simply believe hell exists. They weren't the ones who created it. While the belief itself is unfortunate, the act of baptism is one of love and caring. Hardly that of an "unhealthy" method of parenting.

Following a vindictive God and appeasing him with rituals has its own set of problems.

 

[sojourner]

You still need to show that being overwhelmed emotionally was sufficient for that suicide to happen.

Dear God!!!

Let's require everyone to show that lack of brain activity is sufficient for death to happen, too!

 

[idav]

You still need to show that being overwhelmed emotionally was sufficient for that suicide to happen.

Even with indoctrination there is always doubt, there is no reason to think that the person really believed that they would see their loved ones. I guess depends on how much doubt or hope the person has at the time but I assume that a person having suicidal thoughts is in deep into doubt and hopelessness.

 

[Koldo]

Point 'em out.

Exemplifying?

It could mean either an enclosed life on a school or a monastery, or living in the woods completely free.

It could mean either being completely egoistic, or completely unselfish.

An ascetic, or an hedonist.

It could be anything at all.

 

[Magic Man]

Because proper foundations are important for holistic development of whole human beings.

Let's try it this way:

We both agree a child should grow up with a sense of self-worth and an ability to relate to his surroundings and people. You call that spiritual formation, and I don't.

You think to achieve that goal, it's OK for a parent to give their child one particular religious path. I'm trying to figure out why. Religion is unnecessary for a child to learn those things. Why not just teach them how to relate to other people and society in general and teach them to value themselves, and let them decide on a religion when they're old enough to make an informed decision themselves?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

You still need to show that being overwhelmed emotionally was sufficient for that suicide to happen.

According to both the DSM and the ICD suicide is a symptom of mental illness. There is no mental illness "religion".
Go science.

 

[Koldo]

You don't have one:

But you said I have one:

''What matters is the logic of your argument.''

What is it you were talking about then?

This is utterly irrelevant as
1) It's a single example and these are inherently fallacious with few exceptions (this isn't one)
2) It's at best an example of someone being taught the wrong things. As this isn't evidence of anything related to religion and technically is evidence of what happens if you teach religious doctrine incorrectly, then we solve the problem by teaching it correctly and the dangerous part is teaching it incorrectly, not to not teach it at all (which, actual scientific research shows, tends to increase suicide rates).
"The historically lower suicide rate among African Americans has been attributed to greater religiosity and differences in “outwardly” rather “inwardly” directed aggression (Gibbs, 1997; Shaffer et al., 1994). "
Source
Conclusion—The bent ecological association was apparent only after adjustment for socioeconomic variation suggesting that, rather than confounding, ecological modification of individual level links between religion and male (but not female) suicide risk is the responsible mechanism. This concurs with micro-level findings suggesting that suicide acceptance depends not only on personal but also on contextual levels of religious belief, and that men are more sensitive to this phenomenon than women. In psychiatric epidemiology, relative risks vary with the exposure’s prevalence. This has important implications for research and prevention.
Source

Decreased suidde acceptance was assodated with lower levels of permissiveness and higher levels of salience, orthodoxy, church attendance and religious affiliation, strongest for Calvinist congregations. Increased suidde acceptance was assodated with younger age, urban residence, unemployed, single and childless status.
Source

For over 100 years the role of religion as a deterrent to suicidal behavior has been studied in various disciplines. We attempt to systematize the existing literature investigating the relationship between religion/spirituality and suicide in this paper. After an overview of the attitudes of the dominant religions (e.g., Catholicism, Islam, and Buddhism) toward suicide, the three main theories that have speculated regarding the link between religion and suicide are presented: "integration theory" (Durkheim, 1897/1997), "religious commitment theory" (Stack, 1983a; Stark, 1983), and "network theory" (Pescosolido & Georgianna, 1989)...Another religion that traditionally described suicide as a sin is Judaism. In fact, in Judaism suicide is often viewed as being a crime greater than homicide because the killer of another (as opposed to the killer of oneself) has a chance to repent (Kaplan & Schoneneberg, 1988, cited in Bailey & Stein, 1995). First injunctions against suicide initially appeared in the Talmud, where it was written that no burial rites honoring the person were to be bestowed, and that burial had to be done outside the cemetery, injunctions that still applied (at least) until recently (Stein, Witztum, & De-Nour, 1989). However, 12th and 16th century codes restricted those injunctions only to suicide of sound mind, whereas suicide while of unsound mind is forgiven. In Israel suicide was considered a legal offense until 1966 (Levav & Aisenberg, 1989).
Islam has a very condemnatory attitude toward killing, whether against another person or oneself. As a verse in the Koran states: "The lit candle should burn until daybreak" (cited in Ineichen, 1998, p. 34). Suicide is a crime under Islamic law and suicide attempts may lead to prosecution (Pridmore & Pasha, 2004). The severity of the sin is so strong that people are not allowed to offer the funeral prayer to a suicide (Jahangir, ur Rehman, & Jan, 1998) even if, nowadays, Muslims may be more willing to accord funeral rites to suicides (Ineichen, 1998).
In contrast, Brahiminism, Buddhism, and Shinto-the state religion of Japan-not only sanctioned but institutionalized suicide (Whalley, 1964). Ceremonial sacrifice of widows, known as suttee, was common and expected both in China and India. Furthermore, both Hinduism and Buddhism taught transmigration of souls. Hindu philosophies of karma and reincarnation mean that life does not end with death: death leads to rebirth. This view has led to a more tolerant attitude toward suicide (Hassan, 1983, cited in Ineichen, 1998), although Hindu scriptures appear relatively ambivalent toward suicide. Suicide attempt is still a punishable legal offence in India...
A number of studies found that religious factors are associated with lower rates of suicidal ideation (Eskin, 2003; Hovey, 1999; Nonnemaker, McNeely, & Blum, 2003; Shagle & Barber, 1995) and plans (Jahangir et al., 1998) or with more negative attitudes toward suicidal behavior (Bagley & Ramsay, 1989; Bender, 2000; Domino, Cohen, & Gonzales, 1981; Domino & Miller, 1992; Domino, Niles, & Raj, 1993; Donahue & Benson, 1995; Eskin, 2003; Hoelter, 1979; King, Hampton, Bernstein & Schichor, 1996; Leane & Shute, 1998; Loewenthal, MacLeod, Cook, Lee & Goldblatt, 2003; Marion & Range, 2003; Minear & Brush, 1980; Neeleman, 1998; Neeleman, Halpern, Leon, & Lewis, 1997; Neeleman, Wessely, & Lewis, 1998; Siegrist, 1996; Stack, 1998a, 1998b; Stack, Wasserman, & Kposowa, 1994; Stein et al., 1989).

Colucci, E., & Martin, G. (2008). Religion and spirituality along the suicidal path. Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior, 38(2), 229-244.

You are not argumenting against what i am saying.