Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[Koldo]

Something that hinders the freedom to place a valid worth -- or that places an invalid worth -- upon someone.

You are being vague again.
What stops me from considering what you regard as 'invalid' as 'valid', and vice versa?

It's not vague. It's multivalent. If any understanding was being obfuscated, then it would be vague. A multiplicity of understandings isn't vague.

It is, when it can mean anything. :yes:

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Most people need to be indoctrinated or brainwashed. Without an externally-defined set of beliefs, rules, behaviors, and expectations, many people would be completely rudderless and probably end up just running around bumping into walls. I think anything other than the most basic level of critical thinking skills is beyond the scope of most peoples' capacity and/or inclination. Most of the population's primary drive is for social acceptance and integration. People will identify with whatever they perceive as best allowing them to acheive this end.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Do not blame your misunderstanding of my position on me.

I don't. You have made very clear that your intent is to argue about a meaningless example that couldn't be less relevant and that shows at best that people can be harmed by what they are taught (which everybody knows anyway). Dozens of pages of posts devoted to one of the most inane and pointless discussions possible.

 

[Koldo]

Because mental illnesses, according to the medical sciences, are biological illnesses. According to the psychological (and correct view), things aren't so simple but there is never a single reason for mental illness and it cannot be caused by religion according to any medical theory of mental illness or according to any scientific theory (although in the latter case, it can be a key factor).

Let me continue:

Although it isn't a christian teaching to say that suicide is as a mean to achieve heavens, it is a christian teaching that people will meet on heavens. That was her reasoning for the suicide. Based on a religious belief.

 

[Koldo]

I don't. You have made very clear that your intent is to argue about a meaningless example that couldn't be less relevant and that shows at best that people can be harmed by what they are taught (which everybody knows anyway). Dozens of pages of posts devoted to one of the most inane and pointless discussions possible.

My intent is to show why dismissing the suicide of that girl on the manner that it was done is faulty. Nothing more, nothing less.

I couldn't care less about your opinion on this subject.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Let me continue:

Although it isn't a christian teaching to say that suicide is as a mean to achieve heavens, it is a christian teaching that people will meet on heavens.

Fantastic. It's a Christian teaching that formed part of the basis of a reasoning that was illogical. Starting with the proper premises and the correct Christian teaching, this reasoning is precluded. So, the example highlights the importance of teaching doctrine carefully to both prevent examples that are meaningless apart from emotional appeals and the wider, more important trends that are caused due to low-levels of church attendance, lower religiosity levels, little or no religious faith, and similar well-documented preventative factors when it comes to suicide.

That was her reasoning for the suicide. Based on a religious belief.

Most people who commit suicide have no hope and believe life is meaningless, painful, and pointless. These are antithetical to Christian beliefs in which life is meaningful, purposeful, and ultimately eternally rewarding. Ergo, we should teach people to accept proper Christian faith to decrease the risk of suicide.

Or this whole line of reasoning is baseless prima facie. People do not generally commit suicide for religious reasons and religiosity is a known preventative factor. But teaching what (to me) is a fairy tale to make people feel better isn't the answer. It's just not the problem. To hammer an example that doesn't show anything other than that teaching things can be harmful is a complete waste of everybody's time.

 

[Koldo]

Fantastic. It's a Christian teaching that formed part of the basis of a reasoning that was illogical. Starting with the proper premises and the correct Christian teaching, this reasoning is precluded. So, the example highlights the importance of teaching doctrine carefully to both prevent examples that are meaningless apart from emotional appeals and the wider, more important trends that are caused due to low-levels of church attendance, lower religiosity levels, little or no religious faith, and similar well-documented preventative factors when it comes to suicide.

Why was her reasoning illogical?
Elaborate on that.

Most people who commit suicide have no hope and believe life is meaningless, painful, and pointless. These are antithetical to Christian beliefs in which life is meaningful, purposeful, and ultimately eternally rewarding. Ergo, we should teach people to accept proper Christian faith to decrease the risk of suicide.

By starting with 'Most people...' you have already undermined your own argument.

Or this whole line of reasoning is baseless prima facie. People do not generally commit suicide for religious reasons and religiosity is a known preventative factor.

Generally? Why do you keep undermining yourself?

But teaching what (to me) is a fairy tale to make people feel better isn't the answer. It's just not the problem. To hammer an example that doesn't show anything other than that teaching things can be harmful is a complete waste of everybody's time.

This debate involves people other than me. Which means I am not the only one interested on it. Whether you think it is a waste of time, it is of no relevance to me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My intent is to show why dismissing the suicide of that girl on the manner that it was done is faulty. Nothing more, nothing less.

I couldn't care less about your opinion on this subject.

Why on Earth would you consider the self-assessment of a child who was mentally disturbed to the point that she was literally a treat to herself to be reliable?

I'm not one to whitewash religion - just ask the people I've been arguing with in this thread - but even I think it's unjustified to pin that suicide on religion. We just don't know what role her religion played.

 

[Koldo]

Why on Earth would you consider the self-assessment of a child who was mentally disturbed to the point that she was literally a treat to herself to be reliable?

She stated a concisive reason. I have no reason to cast doubt on her words.

I'm not one to whitewash religion - just ask the people I've been arguing with in this thread - but even I think it's unjustified to pin that suicide on religion. We just don't know what role her religion played.

If we disregard what she said, indeed.

 

[idav]

Starting with the proper premises and the correct Christian teaching, this reasoning is precluded.

What is with this "proper premises" and "correct Christian teaching"? Jesus said we'd be better off drowning in the sea than to influence the little ones into sin. Christians are not against death because Jesus took care of that issue. It is about belief and forgiveness. I know Christians like to pick and choose "acceptable" sins but they are forgivable save one. Based on the Christian religion it isn't far fetched to land in heaven even having been a sinner. Catholics do distinguish certain types of sins, like mortal sins, but still all forgivable in theory.

 

[sojourner]

So, it would be cool to to try to force the kid into the same line of work as the parents because it imparts a particular meaning to their endeavors that provides a cultural context congruent with that of the parents? I do appreciate your ability to use college-level words, but all you're really saying is that parents should teach their kids their religion because it teaches them the parents beliefs and culture. I'm still trying to figure out why that's an acceptable thing.

No. Vocation isn't the same thing as building a sense of self-worth and an ability to relate to one's surroundings and people.

One relates far better to one's surroundings and the people upon whom one is imprinting (parents) if one lives into the same cultural context as the parents.

I'm still trying to figure out why teaching one's kids one's beliefs and culture is an inherently unacceptable thing?? Small children aren't fully differentiated from their parents, and shouldn't be encouraged to be so prematurely.

 

[Magic Man]

Why on Earth would you consider the self-assessment of a child who was mentally disturbed to the point that she was literally a treat to herself to be reliable?

I'm not one to whitewash religion - just ask the people I've been arguing with in this thread - but even I think it's unjustified to pin that suicide on religion. We just don't know what role her religion played.

When a person says they are killing themselves to be with their dead loved ones, while there are other factors in play, we have to acknowledge that their belief that they'd see their loved ones again played a significant role. The point of the example was just to show how religious beliefs, even mild and comforting ones, can be harmful, not that religion is so horrible it causes everyone to do this.

 

[Magic Man]

No. Vocation isn't the same thing as building a sense of self-worth and an ability to relate to one's surroundings and people.

One relates far better to one's surroundings and the people upon whom one is imprinting (parents) if one lives into the same cultural context as the parents.

Right, so give them some cultural context. Religion is still unnecessary.

I'm still trying to figure out why teaching one's kids one's beliefs and culture is an inherently unacceptable thing?? Small children aren't fully differentiated from their parents, and shouldn't be encouraged to be so prematurely.

I'm still trying to figure out why the particular religion of the parents is an acceptable option to imprint on a child just because the parents can.

 

[idav]

People do not generally commit suicide for religious reasons and religiosity is a known preventative factor.

Apparently it isn't always a preventative measure because Christians would rather be in heaven than hell on earth. It is a cultural thing, like in Japan no problem. Here in the US we don't normally condone such behavior like suicide bombing or suicide for honor or what not.

 

[sojourner]

What stops me from considering what you regard as 'invalid' as 'valid', and vice versa?

What's "of worth is up for grabs." That worth is valid so long as it promotes healthy self-awareness and self-differentiation. Worth is invalid if that worth is dependent upon some arbitrary condition. Valid worth: "You're special just because you're unique." Invalid worth: "You're a good boy if you make all A's in school."

It is, when it can mean anything.

it can't mean "anything."

 

[sojourner]

When a person says they are killing themselves to be with their dead loved ones, while there are other factors in play, we have to acknowledge that their belief that they'd see their loved ones again played a significant role. The point of the example was just to show how religious beliefs, even mild and comforting ones, can be harmful, not that religion is so horrible it causes everyone to do this.

it wasn't the belief that was harmful. It was the action based upon mental instability that was harmful.

 

[sojourner]

Right, so give them some cultural context. Religion is still unnecessary.

Religion is culturally imbedded.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

She stated a concisive reason. I have no reason to cast doubt on her words.

I would think the fact that she was disturbed enough to choose suicide would be enough to suspect that she was not in the most rational state of mind, but regardless, do you automatically accept everything you're told as reliable teuth until it's disproven? Most of the rest of us try to use our critical thinking skills when we're presented with a claim.

 

[Koldo]

What's "of worth is up for grabs." That worth is valid so long as it promotes healthy self-awareness and self-differentiation. Worth is invalid if that worth is dependent upon some arbitrary condition. Valid worth: "You're special just because you're unique." Invalid worth: "You're a good boy if you make all A's in school."

Worth is a construct. It is whatever people make it out to be.

it can't mean "anything."

As a reader, I say: It can.

 

[sojourner]

I'm still trying to figure out why the particular religion of the parents is an acceptable option to imprint on a child just because the parents can.

Because in our culture, it's the duty of the parents to rear their children according to values they believe are worthwhile and conducive to the fostering of wholeness.