Symbols are not equivalent to metaphors.
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Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing
- Thread starter 1137
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Infants are baptized before the can properly pronounce the word bottle. They are taken to church every sunday and eventually they have to make sense of that. Some are taken more often. Prayers are said before every meal thanking someone a new mind has to figure out how to understand.
Brainwashing? In some cases perhaps but clearly many children had no choice since they were raised on such ideas before they were rational and independent. You can accept jesus into your heart far before you can drive or consume alcohol.
Its the parents choice. And Matthew 10:37 says gods love comes first. You have to love god more than mom and your children.
What is Jesus trying to say here? Does one have to love Jesus more than their kids? What could he being trying to say?
Brainwashing? In some cases perhaps but clearly many children had no choice since they were raised on such ideas before they were rational and independent. You can accept jesus into your heart far before you can drive or consume alcohol.
Its the parents choice. And Matthew 10:37 says gods love comes first. You have to love god more than mom and your children.
What is Jesus trying to say here? Does one have to love Jesus more than their kids? What could he being trying to say?
Enai de a lukal
Well-Known Member
That's either not the whole definition, or a bizarre one. I think that this is more accurate-
"literal: taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory"
Because that is not really the sense in which the existence of God is understood literally- as above, it simply means that this claim is interpreted at face value, rather than as a metaphor or allegory for something else.
In any case, at best you can say that many Christians disagree with you, or have, by your lights, an inaccurate conception of God or of theism generally. This does not mean that deep down, as it were, they REALLY believe exactly what you believe.
And of course, once you're forced to admit the patent fact- that many Christians hold just the sort of view you repudiate- most of the objections to religious indoctrination that you've rejected on the basis of your pet (mis)conception of religion regain their force.
Yay OED:
Free from metaphor, allegory, etc.
a. orig. Theol. Of or relating to the letter (letter n.1 6) of a text, obtained by taking words and passages in their primary or usual meaning, without regard to any underlying significance, mysticism, or allegory; (hence) actual or concrete, as opposed to figurative, metaphorical, etc.In Protestant Theology sometimes (perhaps after Tyndale, quot. 1528): that is the sense intended by the original writer of the text, without regard to later commentary, exegesis, or interpretation.
...
b. Of a (scriptural) law: that is, or is intended to be, interpreted literally or to the letter. Cf. spirit n. 10c. Now rare.
1561 T. Norton tr. J. Calvin Inst. Christian Relig. v. f. 30v, The couenaunt of God made with the auncient people, was voyde, bicause it was only literall [L. literale].
1605 W. Camden Remaines 151 Moses received of God a literal Law..to be imparted to all, and another Mystical.
1777 Westm. Mag. 5 435/1 We do not approve of the Author's restricting the opinions of Judges..to the extremum jus of literal Law. They ought to be indulged in a liberty of construing the letter of an Act according to the spirit of its design.
1827 J. D. Michaelis Burial & Resurrection Christ 38 The Jews had no literal law from Moses, prohibiting the body of a crucified person..from being left upon the cross.
1983 E. P. Sanders Paul, Law & Jewish People‎ (1989) iii. 118 They did not observe the literal law, but they observed its real intent.
c. Of, relating to, or designating the primary, original, or etymological sense of a word, or the exact sense expressed by the actual wording of a phrase or passage, as distinguished from any extended sense, metaphorical meaning, or underlying significance.
1597 G. Harvey Trimming T. Nashe in Wks. (1885) III. 36, I giue not euery word their litteral sence.
1638 R. Baker tr. J. L. G. de Balzac New Epist. III. 12 Never eares were more attentive..than those of our family when I read your Letter before them: they were not satisfied to have onely a literall interpretation.
1676 E. Stillingfleet & Bp. G. Burnet Relation Conf. Relig. 31 Many large and high expressions, which cannot bear a literal meaning.
1718 Free-thinker No. 35. 2 If you mention the Golden Age to him, he understands it in a literal sense.
1763 Ld. Chesterfield Let. 18 Dec. (1932) (modernized text) VI. 2568, I see very few people; and, in the literal sense of the word, I hear nothing.
180910 S. T. Coleridge Friend (1865) 156 Advocates for reform in the literal sense of the word.
1874 C. Kingsley in Overland Monthly May 479/2 In painting, poetry, music..lies recreation, in the true and literal sense of that word, namely, the recreating and mending of the exhausted mind.
1992 Oldie 21 Feb. 5/2 The expression sexually active... has lost its literal meaning and is generally understood to refer only to people who are sexually active outside marriage.
2000 A. Maupin Night Listener (2001) i. 7 My authorial voice deserted me in the most literal way possiblein the midst of a recording session.
d. Of a person, the mind, etc.: apt to take words literally; characterized by an inability to recognize metaphor or understand humorous exaggeration, irony, or the like; lacking imagination; prosaic, literal-minded.
1633 J. Shirley Wittie Faire One ii. i. sig. D2v, Fow. Not serve you? Why dee thinke a man cannot love and serve too. Penel. Not one serve two, well. Fow. You are too literall.
1710 Swift Disc. Mech. Operat. Spirit in Tale of Tub (ed. 5) 337 A sort of Modern Authors, who have too literal an understanding.
1778 F. Burney Evelina III. xxi. 243 I fancy you will find no person..call going about a few places in a morning seeing Bath. Mayhap, then, said the literal Captain, you think we should see it better by going about at midnight?
1837 H. Martineau Society in Amer. III. 78 Their tendency..to something of the literal dulness which Charles Lamb complains of in relation to the Scotch.
1858 O. W. Holmes Autocrat of Breakfast-table iii. 57 One man who is a little too literal can spoil the talk of a whole tableful of men of esprit.
1883 M. Oliphant Hester I. v. 66 I should not have let the Queen come in, to disturb you.The Queen..would never want to come, said Mrs. John, who was very literal.
1953 A. Hosain Phoenix Fled 150 He felt irritated by her literal mind.
1998 Spin Oct. 94/1 I was joking, she said. You're so literalthat's tragic.
e. Of compositional style or method: free from figures of speech, exaggeration, or allusion. Now rare.
1690 T. Burnet Theory of Earth iv. i. 131 Some men..say they [sc. the Prophets] are to be understood in a figurate and allegorical sence... To avoid all shuffling..let us appeal to S. Peter, who uses a plain literal style.
1736 Bp. J. Butler Analogy of Relig. i. iii. 62 They are not to be taken, as intended for a literal Delineation of what is in Fact the particular Scheme of the Universe.
1846 Hogg's Weekly Instructor 23 May 200/1 The bare and literal style of Cowper.
1887 M. Morris Claverhouse iv. 66 His own despatch, which is singularly literal and straightforward.
1921 P. P. Claxton & J. McGinniss Effective Eng.: Junior xii. 240 When you say that a company employs fifty men, you use literal language; but if you say that it employs fifty hands, you use figurative language.
2003 F. Palmeri Satire, Hist., Novel iii. 119 The discourse..is divided between an elaborately figurative and metaphysical style on the one hand and a reductively literal style on the other.
6.
a. That is (the thing specified) in a real or actual sense, without metaphor, exaggeration, or distortion.
1624 T. Higgons Mystical Babylon i. 64, Some..offences, which went before in litterall Babylon, and now follow after in Papall Rome.
1646 Sir T. Browne Pseudodoxia Epidemica i. iii. 11 The literall and downe-right adorement of Cats, Lizards, and Beetles.
1659 J. Pearson Expos. Creed (1839) 385 When we say Christ ascended, we understand a literal and local ascent..of his humanity.
1730 J. Robertson Καινα καί Παλαια xi. 190 Some make Rome literal to be mystical Babylon.
1836 T. Merritt Discuss. Universal Salvation i. 30 The passage in John refers to a literal resurrection, that in Ezekiel to a figurative resurrection.
1870 E. A. Freeman Hist. Norman Conquest (ed. 2) I. ii. 18 The literal extirpation of a nation is an impossibility.
1908 G. A. Birmingham Spanish Gold 62 Do you suppose that the Prime Minister, when he thinks he'll have to go to war with Germany, tells the literal truth?
1988 A. N. Wilson Tolstoy iv. 89 It is not safe to take Tolstoy's diaries as a literal record of events.
2008 Poetry Rev. Winter 67 By damned I mean simply utterly separated from God, and not condemned to a literal hell.
b. colloq. Used in figurative or hyperbolic expressions to add emphasis or as an intensifier: veritable, real; complete, absolute, utter. Cf. literally adv. 1c.Often considered irregular in standard English, since it reverses the earlier sense without metaphor, exaggeration, or distortion.
1857 Young Men's Mag. Nov. 332/1 We hurried on to Baden Baden. Let no American send his son thither if he have any penchant for the card-table or the roulette. It is a literal hell.
1902 Methodist Mag. & Rev. July 79/1 The vexed domestic servant problem was surely becoming a literal nightmare.
1911 G. B. Shaw Getting Married Pref. 186 We shall in a very literal sense empty the baby out with the bath by abolishing an institution which needs nothing more than a little..rationalizing to make it..useful.
1964 Boys' Life Feb. 18/2 His mind was a literal warehouse of facts, his wit quick and sharp.
1995 J. M. Glass Psychosis & Power v. 92 Maureen's body was a literal battleground; when she gave up her cache of razor blades to a departing therapist, she turned to laxatives.
2008 Hotline (Nexis) 19 May, What you are seeing nationally is the same thing we are seeing in Oregon: a literal collapse of the Republican brand.
It occurs to me that for someone who can go off at the slightest statement in opposition to religion, you seem REALLY quick to denigrate the faith of others.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
I haven't seen anyone paint all religious activity as indoctrination. I've seen people like me say that if religious beliefs are presented as beliefs just like many other religious beliefs, not as fact (or also if they're presented as myths should be), it's a much different situation.
Yes, of course that's indoctrination. But it highlights an important distinction. You don't see parents do that, and for good reason.
People could argue anything. Some people argue that the Holocaust didn't happen. That doesn't mean they have a valid argument, and they definitely wouldn't in the case of trying to argue that not teaching God is real is a form of indoctrination. Not teaching a belief is not indoctrination; only teaching a belief is. Teaching that there is no god could be considered indoctrination, however.
Wait, is your argument that religious beliefs are true? Obviously religion is a real thing; I can't see anyone arguing that. So, which religious beliefs are true? Is it Christianity or Islam or Buddhism? Maybe Paganism? Satanism?
Who said anything about despising their parents? I love my parents. I don't harbor any resentment towards them. They sure did waste a lot of my time and mental energy on nonsense, though.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Last night I noticed a postcard on our refrigerator. It was to announce the third birthday of my wife's cousin's son. It mentioned a few things he can do, one of which is recite several Bible verses. It sort of clarified what I'm thinking. When people think of indoctrination or call it "forcing religion on kids", it makes it sound harsh, and so they don't want to include normal religious upbringing in it. However, even if it sounds harsh, I don't see anyway around calling this kind of upbringing indoctrination. It's not the isolated, "you will believe or else" kind of approach, but it's still putting the beliefs in the child's head. All of the teaching of Bible verses in the first few years, taking them to church every week, talking about God and Jesus and everything else as if it's an accepted fact, etc. still forces the beliefs into the child's head, even if the term "forces" sounds bad.
Quoting a single verse is hardly putting beliefs in any child's head. The kid probably wouldn't even remember it later on. Making him memorize might be different.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
As I said, he can recite them, as in he has memorized them. But the point is it's not just one single thing. It's not like that's all that's going on. That goes along with a lot of other things like going to church and learning the Bible and many others.
I had to recite the preamble of the Constitution when I was in school. I had to memorize the state capitals. I used to remember passages of my favorite books. In high school, I had to memorize to Shakespearean soliloquies from Hamlet and Macbeth. I am not a politician and I am not a Shakespearean actor, and I am not a historian.
This is a silly argument on my part, but...
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
I had to recite the preamble of the Constitution when I was in school. I had to memorize the state capitals. I used to remember passages of my favorite books. In high school, I had to memorize to Shakespearean soliloquies from Hamlet and Macbeth. I am not a politician and I am not a Shakespearean actor, and I am not a historian.
And was any of that a method to teach you certain beliefs? Did you memorize Shakespeare to teach you facts about the world? Did you memorize state capitals or the Constitution in order to solidify a belief system in your mind?
Did anybody learn the Lesser Banishing Spell? Any verses from the Quran? To recite "Om Mani Padme Hum"? And then felt they weren't indoctrinated by being told by their parents?
I'd probably feel as if the parallels were more authentic if we utilized religious practices instead of secular if we wanted to compare and contrast. I think right now we're pretty comfortable with Christian practices that would seem incredibly at odds with common cultural practices in Oman, for instance.
I'd probably feel as if the parallels were more authentic if we utilized religious practices instead of secular if we wanted to compare and contrast. I think right now we're pretty comfortable with Christian practices that would seem incredibly at odds with common cultural practices in Oman, for instance.
Enai de a lukal
Well-Known Member
Thank you- quite exhaustive. And, upon a quick glance at Merriam-Webster online, we see that that was not the whole definition in the first place (I would've been surprised that M-W had given such a woeful and incomplete definition)-
Full Definition of LITERAL
1a : according with the letter of the scriptures
b : adhering to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression : actual <liberty in the literal sense is impossible B. N. Cardozo>
c : free from exaggeration or embellishment <the literal truth>
d : characterized by a concern mainly with facts <a very literal man>
2: of, relating to, or expressed in letters
3: reproduced word for word : exact, verbatim <a literal translation>
Sojourner cited 1d, which is probably the least applicable in this context.
Now, I'd be one of the first to agree that any literal reading of scripture is completely untenable- unfortunately, whether a view is tenable or not doesn't have much to do with whether it isn't held nonetheless. Alot of people hold quite untenable views, on any number of subjects. And it is a matter of patent fact that many Christians, entire denominations or traditions within Christianity even, have a largely literal view of scripture and of religious belief generally (and that's "literal" in the sense of 1a or b above). And this is true of more religions than just Christianity. Thus, characterizing all religious belief as metaphorical or allegorical in nature is simply false descriptively, and there's no reason to accept this as a normative prescription for religion either. Besides, metaphor and allegory only puts the problem of the meaning of religious beliefs or scriptures at one remove- metaphors and allegories are a metaphor or allegory for something (and, at the end of the day, there are almost always a handful of religious propositions which MUST retain some literal meaning, even for those who endorse allegory or metaphor generally- the existence of God, for instance).
Me Myself
Back to my username
Thanks. Now we have a similarity to offer.
Personally, I think this is much better than suggesting that teaching children how to say "please" and "thank you" is very much like teaching them that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light.
They are brainwashed anyway, one way or another.
The truth and fact is that no one can say for sure what would happen after death. It's no wrong to get them prepared rather than to swallow a false delusion introduced by our secular education system. Inside this system, children are brainwashed to believe (with faith) that nothing will happen after death (a secular concept introduced by our education system without one's own consent).
To simply put, all children are brainwashed (using your terms) either by a secular education system sub-consciously without one's own knowledge, or by their religious parents explicitly saying that it is a faith-based religion. The other side of the coin, that is the secular, is just yet another faith-based religion (hidden and less obvious though).
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Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
1) That nothing will happen after death is a reasonable assumption based on the facts we have about how the universe works.
2) Since when is the education system introducing that concept to children?
No, that's rather the fallacy that "the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence".
Everyone knows, anything religious in a sense will be removed from the system. Teachers will not teach God exists and so forth. That sub-consciously conveys the message that no god exists (as the other option gets expelled from the system).
Yes, I did.
Me Myself
Back to my username
Thats merely your opinion.
I see no reason to believe consciousness ends with the death of the biological body.